Cellular Oxidative Damage from Fluoroquinolones

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Here are some thoughts about what is/was going on in our floxed bodies.

First, here’s my typical disclaimer.  I’m not a doctor or scientist.  I’m doing my best to put together this information, but I could be wrong.  I do my best to be right and I back up my assertions with peer-reviewed journal articles.

As I mentioned in Article Breakdown – “Mechanisms of Pathogenesis in Drug Hepatotoxicity Putting the Stress on Mitochondria,” I believe that this paragraph describes much of what occurs in floxed cells:

“Increased steady-state levels of mitochondrial superoxide, arising from reduction of Sod2 activity in the Sod+/−mice (i.e., approximately half the wild-type activity), may be exacerbated by drugs that directly target the ETC [e.g., the complex I inhibitors flutamide and troglitazone (122)]. The increased amount of superoxide raises two considerations. First, superoxide that escapes dismutation to hydrogen peroxide cannot cross the inner mitochondrial membrane and can oxidize [Fe-S]-containing enzymes (e.g., aconitase and complex I/III subunits). Alternatively, superoxide can rapidly react with mitochondrial nitric oxide (NO) to form peroxynitrite (ONOO−). For example, the fluoroquinolone antibiotic trovafloxacin (TVX), a typical DILI (drug induced liver injury) associated drug, raises steady-state levels of NO in hepatocellular mitochondria (unpublished data). The mechanisms are not known, but TVX also increases cytosolic (non-ferritin-bound) Ca2+, likely activating the Ca2+-dependent mitochondrial NO synthase (123) to produce ONOO−. Peroxynitrite is dangerous for a number of reasons: i) under acidic conditions, it can be degraded to form the extremely reactive hydroxyl radical; ii) it may directly cause the nitration of aconitase, Sod2, and the [Fe-S]-containing subunits of ETC complexes; and iii) it can induce mitochondrial permeabilization (Figure 4B) (124). This superimposed oxidative/nitrative stress could ultimately push the cell across the threshold to observable injury.”

SUPEROXIDE DAMAGE OF MITOCHONDRIAL DNA

Superoxide is a powerful oxidant that is quite toxic.  Per “Mitochondrial matrix reactive oxygen species production is very sensitive to mild uncoupling,” “ROS are produced continuously as a by-product of aerobic metabolism.  Superoxide can be produced as a result of the one-electron reduction system within the mitochondrial electron transport chain.  Superoxide can then be converted into hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) by superoxide dismutase (the Mn isoform in the matrix and cu, Zn-superoxide dismutase in the cytosol).  H2O2 can be converted into highly reactive hydroxyl radicals (OH-) by the Fenton reaction, and can cause lipid peroxidation.” More info about superoxide can be found here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoxide

In properly functioning cells, superoxide dismutase (SOD) converts superoxide into hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and water.  Unfortunately, fluoroquinolones deplete cellular SOD.  In “Oxidative Stress Induced by Fluoroquinolones on Treatment for Complicated Urinary Tract Infections in Indian Patients” it was found that, for human patients with urinary tract infections and treated with various fluoroquinolones, “There was substantial depletion in both SOD and glutathione levels particularly with ciprofloxacin.”

Without sufficient SOD, as noted above, superoxide “cannot cross the inner mitochondrial membrane and can oxidize.”  Oxidization within the mitochondrial membrane is harmful because it damages mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and starts the vicious cycle of oxidative damage to mitochondria.  (This “vicious cycle” theory is described in “Oxidative stress induces degradation of mitochondrial DNA” – “According to this theory, the production of ROS by mitochondria leads to mtDNA damage and mutations which in turn lead to progressive respiratory chain dysfunction and to a further increase in ROS production as a consequence of this dysfunction. The exponential escalation of these processes is commonly referred to as a ‘vicious cycle’, and the theory predicts that the rise in mtDNA mutations and ROS eventually reach levels that are incompatible with life.”  It should be noted that whether or not this theory is true for how aging works is contentious.  The vicious cycle of damage done by ROS does occur in mitochondria though.)

THE NITRIC OXIDE / PEROXYNITRITE (NO/ONOO-) CYCLE

Additionally, “superoxide can rapidly react with mitochondrial nitric oxide (NO) to form peroxynitrite (ONOO−).”  The ways in which peroxynitrite are dangerous are noted in the paragraph from “Mechanisms of Pathogenesis” at the beginning of this post.

Dr. Martin L. Pall, Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry and Basic Medical Sciences at Washington State University describes the NO/ONOO- (nitric oxide / peroxynitrite) cycle in his web site, http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/index.html.  Here is a diagram from The Tenth Paradigm describing the NO/ONOO- cycle –

ONOO cycle

Here is Dr. Pall’s description of the above diagram:

“Fig. 1 legend.  Vicious (NO/ONOO-) cycle diagram.  Each arrow represents one or more mechanisms by which the variable at the foot of the arrow can stimulate the level of the variable at the head of the arrow.  It can be seen that these arrows form a series of loops that can potentially continue to stimulate each other.  An example of this would be that nitric oxide can increase peroxynitrite which can stimulate oxidative stress which can stimulate NF-kappaB which can increase the production of iNOS which can, in turn increase nitric oxide.  This loop alone constitutes a potential vicious cycle and there are a number of other loops, diagrammed in the figure that can collectively make up a much larger vicious cycle.  The challenge, according to this view, in these illnesses is to lower this whole pattern of elevations to get back into a normal range.  You will note that the cycle not only includes the compounds nitric oxide, superoxide and peroxynitrite but a series of other elements, including the transcription factor NF-kappaB,  oxidative stress, inflammatory cytokines (in box, upper right), the three different forms of the enzymes that make nitric oxide (the nitric oxide synthases iNOS, nNOS and eNOS), and two neurological receptors the vanilloid (TRPV1) receptor and the NMDA receptor.”

The NO/ONOO- cycle provides a reasonable explanation for why it feels as if a bomb has gone off in the body of the floxie.  It also is an explanation as to why the adverse effects of drugs that damage mitochondria and cause oxidative stress are not transient.  There are feedback loops within the cells that perpetuate the damage.

Here is Dr. Pall’s table of signs of the NO/ONOO- cycle –

Explanations for Symptoms and Signs

Symptom/Sign Explanation based on elevated nitric oxide/peroxynitrite theory
energy metabolism /mitochondrial dysfunction Inactivation of several proteins in the mitochondrion by peroxynitrite; inhibition of some mitochondrial enzymes by nitric oxide and superoxide
oxidative stress Peroxynitrite, superoxide and other oxidants
PET scan changes Energy metabolism dysfunction leading to change transport of probe; changes in perfusion by nitric oxide, peroxynitrite and isoprostanes
SPECT scan changes Depletion of reduced glutathione by oxidative stress; perfusion changes as under PET scan changes
Low NK cell function Superoxide and other oxidants acting to lower NK cell function
Elevated cytokines NF-kappaB stimulating of the activity of inflammatory cytokine genes
Anxiety Excessive NMDA activity in the amygdala
Depression Elevated nitric oxide leading to depression; cytokines and NMDA increases acting in part or in whole via nitric oxide.
Rage Excessive NMDA activity in the periaqueductal gray region of the midbrain
Cognitive/learning and memory dysfunction Lowered energy metabolism in the brain, which is very susceptible to such changes; excessive NMDA activity and nitric oxide levels and their effects of learning and memory
Multiorgan pain All components of cycle have a role, acting in part through nitric oxide and cyclic GMP elevation
Fatigue Energy metabolism dysfunction
Sleep disturbance Sleep impacted by inflammatory cytokines, NF-kappaB activity and nitric oxide
Orthostatic intolerance Two mechanisms:  Nitric oxide-mediated vasodilation leading to blood pooling in the lower body; nitric oxide-mediated sympathetic nervous system dysfunction
Irritable bowel syndrome Sensitivity and other changes produced by excessive vanilloid and NMDA activity, increased nitric oxide
Intestinal permeabilization leading to food allergies Permeabilization produced by excessive nitric oxide, inflammatory cytokines, NF-kappaB activity and peroxynitrite; peroxynitrite acts in part by stimulating poly ADP-ribose polymerase activity

Sounds pretty familiar, doesn’t it?

STOPPING THE NO/ONOO- CYCLE

What can be done to stop the NO/ONOO- cycle?  How can one heal when cells are reinforcing the damage done to them over and over again?

Here are Dr. Pall’s recommendations – http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/therapy.htm

Additionally, a very smart and appreciated floxie noted in a comment on this site, that uric acid has been shown to decrease peroxynitrite.  Per the article, “Uric acid, a natural scavenger of peroxynitrite, in experimental allergic encephalomyelitis and multiple sclerosis,” “Uric acid, the naturally occurring product of purine metabolism, is a strong peroxynitrite scavenger, as demonstrated by the capacity to bind peroxynitrite but not nitric oxide (NO).”  (There has been some debate about whether floxies want to increase or decrease nitric oxide.  I think that we want to increase NO because too much of it is converted into peroxynitrite.  Here’s an article on how NO helps with tendon healing – “The role of nitric oxide in tendon healing.”)  Uric acid.  The stuff that causes kidney stones and gout – it’s a powerful antioxidant that scavenges peroxynitrite.

The role that uric acid plays in getting rid of toxic peroxynitrite makes sense to me on a personal level because of a couple of things that have made me feel significantly better post-flox – brewer’s yeast and uridine supplements.  Both brewer’s yeast and uridine are high in purines, which are converted into uric acid in the body.  I always thought that the purines and uric acid were a necessary evil and that the good done by brewer’s yeast had to do with its high amino acid and/or B vitamin content.  Now I’m thinking that the necessary evil was actually the active ingredient.

fluoroquinolone-lawsuit-banner-trulaw

Here are a couple more articles about the role of uric acid in peroxynitrite neutralization (thanks again to the floxie friend who pointed them out):

There is a very real risk of kidney stones and gout when consuming too many purines that lead to excess uric acid.  Even though brewer’s yeast has helped me immensely, I feel quite conflicted about it.  I don’t want a kidney stone and gout would probably make my flox-induced peripheral neuropathy look like a cake-walk.  Now that I’m feeling well, I’m probably going to cut way down on my brewer’s yeast consumption.  I really don’t know which are worse – the diseases of too much uric acid (kidney stones and gout) or the diseases of too little uric acid (“patients with MS have significantly lower levels of serum uric acid than controls” and peroxynitrite is associated with lots of other nasty diseases – like cancer and Alzheimer’s).  This isn’t exactly a great predicament.

Another consideration is that fluoroquinolones deplete cellular magnesium and proper amounts of cellular magnesium are necessary for 300+ enzymatic reactions.  (Fluoroquinolones may inhibit and deplete enzymes through means other than depletion of cellular magnesium too.)  If one doesn’t have the enzymes to metabolize uric acid, well, too much isn’t a good thing.  Too much peroxynitrite is bad too though.

I wish that the answers were more clear.  I hope that this post at least gave you some information with which you can make an informed decision!

In researching this post, I stumbled upon this interesting web site – http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/ROS.html  It is noted on the site that uric acid is an antioxidant and that, “Perhaps the long life span of some reptiles and birds is attributable to their high levels of uric acid.”  Bird shit and reptile blood are full of the stuff.  If there is a cure for fluoroquinolone toxicity, it’ll probably come from bird turds or alligator blood.  Great.

 

flu tox get help you need banner click lisa

 

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88 thoughts on “Cellular Oxidative Damage from Fluoroquinolones

  1. Ms. A August 5, 2014 at 8:34 am Reply

    At least I understood that last paragraph and even got a chuckle! The rest is way over my head at this point.

    • Lisa Bloomquist August 5, 2014 at 8:49 am Reply

      Super sciencey – sorry! Here’s a synopsis – FQs induce mitochondrial damage that starts a cycle of oxidative stress and further mito damage. Antioxidants help to stop that cycle of damage. Uric acid is a powerful antioxidant. Unfortunately, it can lead to gout and kidney stones. Brewer’s yeast has purines in it that are metabolized into uric acid. Brewer’s yeast helped me a lot. Now I feel conflicted about it though because I don’t want a kidney stone or gout.

      • Ms. A August 5, 2014 at 9:03 am Reply

        Now that I understand!

        PS: Thank you for the recent help!

  2. Floxed August 5, 2014 at 10:08 am Reply

    Very interesting article.I had a PET scan after I have been floxed and it said I have glucose metabolism proplems.That is a energy matabolism problem as said in the article, since glucose is the brain’s fuel.
    So would a super oxide dismutase supplement + CoQ10 + PQQ + some other antioxidants like Acai berry (if IV glutathion is not available for me) be helpful ?

    • Lisa Bloomquist August 5, 2014 at 8:35 pm Reply

      I find this stuff to be fascinating – I’m glad that you do too!

      There is a tendency to view things in black/white terms and to think of antioxidants as all good and ROS as all bad. But, unfortunately, this isn’t the whole story. We need the right amount of both antioxidants and ROS.

      The safest and most prudent thing to do would be to consult with a functional medicine doctor, get your levels of antioxidants and ROS tested and make adjustments accordingly. In reality, most floxies self-experiment. Many floxies’ experiments have led them to note that antioxidant supplements have made them feel better. Not everyone though. Personally, I notice more of a difference with the cofactors – the magnesium, iron, B vitamins and, as noted above, brewer’s yeast – than I do with supplementing antioxidants. Maybe that’s just me though. Everyone seems to be a bit different.

      My non-medical opinion is that the supplements that you mentioned are worth a try. And magnesium seems to help almost everyone.

      Regards,
      Lisa

  3. David Melvin August 5, 2014 at 10:49 am Reply

    A couple of observations…excellent article by the way.

    In your article you state something very critical… “There are feedback loops within the cells that perpetuate the damage”, this is so very true.

    I have vigorously debated the NO conundrum, with myself over the last few years as I have definite signs of a very dysfunctional NO/ONOO cycle. I am currently experimenting, with the help of my talented person physician, in trying to increase NO levels during times that I experience pain and inflammation to see if it helps. We are using glyceryl trinitrate in two different delivery mechanisms.

    For what its worth…last year I induced a case of gout by taking some molybdenum while I was eating some fresh lentil soup. I have never had gout nor do I have any hereditary predisposition to it. Other than hobbling around with an extremely sore big toe and foot, the rest of me felt pretty good. Hmmmmm

    Keep of the good work!

    • Lisa Bloomquist August 5, 2014 at 9:06 pm Reply

      Thanks, David! I’m kind of tickled that you liked it! I respect your work a lot, so, well, the mutual admiration is cool. 🙂

      I have a half-written post about how the positive feedback loops that keep us healthy and strong must be stronger than the negative feedback loops that perpetuate damage long after the initial assault has ended. I hope that I’m right about that.

      I read a fairly recent article (I think that it was published in 2011) that noted that the researchers had no idea what the baseline level of superoxide in cells should be. We know that too little is bad. We know that too much is bad. There is an optimal level of every ROS and antioxidant, but exactly what that level is isn’t yet known – to the study’s authors at least. Does the doctor that you’re working with have more information on the optimal levels of NO, or are you guys experimenting and basing things off of how you feel?

      All of this uric acid stuff makes me go Hmmmmm. It’s interesting stuff! I just started looking into it. Trading peripheral neuropathy for painful feet due to gout doesn’t seem like a good trade-off to me. But maybe gout in exchange for all of the physical and mental symptoms of floxing may be an okay trade-off. ‘Tis better to have neither though.

      Best,
      Lisa

  4. Lou August 5, 2014 at 2:34 pm Reply

    Any idea why my tendon symptoms (only symptoms) came on 2 wks post cipro, after by chance taking pycogenol for 4 days, as it is a super antioxidant?
    Also does this stop at some point post floxing or is it forever? On last thing, was hoping that article might clarify what best to take for multi tendon stuff, any key top 5 suggestions? May thanks for this site it has been the only light of hope amongst much misery! Thank you

    • Lisa Bloomquist August 5, 2014 at 9:31 pm Reply

      Hi Lou,

      The delayed reactions are tricky, aren’t they? I think that the delayed reactions are because of the “vicious cycle” of mitochondrial damage. Damaged mito create high levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS). ROS damage mitochondria. This goes in a cycle of damage. Your mito can withstand a certain amount of damage without that damage manifesting in a disease state. However, after a certain threshold is reached, the damage overwhelms the cell and you get sick. This process is described in the Mechanisms of Pathogenesis article linked to above (I’m having some trouble accessing it right now or I’d link it to you directly).

      I honestly have no idea if the pycogenol helped or hurt. Sorry!

      I thoroughly believe that healing is possible and that we have strong feedback loops of health and strength that overcome the negative feedback loops of damage. It takes some time to heal. It takes some nourishment of your cells. Luck doesn’t hurt either. The stories on this site have lots of tips of things that you can do to heal. Magnesium supplementation seems to help most floxies and studies point toward mag deficiency as being the cause of the tendon issues. Getting intracellular magnesium levels up is easier said than done. But it’s a good thing to try to do. Brewer’s yeast has helped me – but please know that it increases uric acid and my increase your chances of kidney stones and/or gout. Other supplements and/or techniques have helped heal floxed tendons. Please look through the stories and comments for advice on what supplements helped.

      For a top 5 suggestion list for tendon issues specifically, I would ask in this fb group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/656341897795892/ There is also an e-book called the Levaquin Tendinitis Solution that may be helpful.

      Best regards,
      Lisa

    • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 12:33 am Reply

      I had to look this up, but in addition to being a strong antioxidant it seems pycnogenol is an anti-inflammatory… affects COX: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19508901 I don’t know if it has any structural or metabolic similarity to NSAIDs, but NSAIDs cause problems as they probably did for me.

      I’m worried about it myself because I tried pycnogenol recently and after further thought, it is coinciding with some odd tendon problems… I broke my own rule of not using black-box substances like herbs. I figured since grape seed extract had been good and this is the same basic substance it would probably be safe, and it’s touted for joint problems, but now I’m not sure…

      • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 12:57 am Reply

        And here’s article that relates COX to MMP/collagenase involved in joint degradation: https://jrheum.com/subscribers/04/70/70.html

        • Lou August 9, 2014 at 1:56 am

          and another thought is bromoline? (pineapple), turmeric, omega 3’s all anti inflams, could the risk be the same for them perhaps?

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 2:11 am

          I’m not sure about all of those. I do avoid bromelain (and the flox report mentions people having adverse reactions to it) and I try to avoid even natural anti-inflammatories because I had no inflammation and I believe they might be counter-productive in that respect (though those substances have other pluses). I have had some turmeric (just in food) and omega-3s (for brain) though. I do know omega-3 isn’t as broad as an NSAID.

          Pycnogenol seems to be stronger so it worries me more, and that one research article saying it inhibits both COX-1 and COX-2 seems to suggest it’s similar to an NSAID…

        • Lou August 9, 2014 at 2:22 am

          Ironically I took pycogenol in the hope it would reduce inflammation in my lungs so that I could go off steroid inhalers! Sorry if this is in the wrong place struggling with this format 🙂

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 2:30 am

          How could you know, it’s insane that nobody has any idea about these interactions to warn us.

          Regarding omega-3s I think maybe despite COX-2 they possibly make up in other ways…

        • Lou August 9, 2014 at 2:41 am

          Thanks will wait before introducing that one though. One Cal, mag, d, B12, good bugs, co q10 & b6, in the hop I can kick the tendon stuff out of my body… HOw are you ding and what is working for you. I have no idea what works for me BTW! 🙂

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 2:49 am

          I had a comment on this page describing what I took: https://floxiehope.com/comment-page-7/
          Not sure it’s all up to date but gives you an idea.
          Unfortunately the tendons/cartilage are the hardest to address… Good night

      • Lou August 9, 2014 at 1:06 am Reply

        Thanks for that, that IS really interesting and ironic!!! Boo 😦

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 1:15 am

          (sorry, replied to wrong comment again)

          Yeah it seems to behave like an NSAID inhibiting both COX-1 and COX-2: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16330178

          This isn’t good 😦

          On the other hand, thanks for posting that because I might not have known and might have taken it again… I don’t know how to mitigate this damage though. I know some of the articles Lisa linked to attribute tendon damage to the NO cycle (in the article above), but there’s also a lot of them that attribute the damage to MMP upregulation.

          For NO cycle I have tons of antioxidants on hand but I have no idea how to reverse MMP upregulation… The article above might suggest high-dose aspirin, but I don’t know if that’s safe.

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 1:23 am

          Sorry I referred to “article above” twice, the first occurrence I meant Lisa’s article here and the second I meant https://jrheum.com/subscribers/04/70/70.html

          I’m tired

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 1:26 am

          Hmm, that’s weird, the two articles I posted seem to contradict; one says COX-1 was upregulated while the other says COX-1 was downregulated.

        • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 11:54 am

          Oh yeah, for the record, Doxycycline is known to inhibit MMP, forgot about that, but it’s not like you can just go out and buy doxycycline.

  5. Lou August 6, 2014 at 12:57 am Reply

    Thank you for the reply.

  6. Lou August 6, 2014 at 1:00 am Reply

    So to stop the vicious cycle with antioxidants? …which would be best for that? I did read the piece twice but twice it went over my head.

    • Lisa Bloomquist August 6, 2014 at 7:31 am Reply

      Hi Lou,

      It’s a really difficult and complex balancing act. But, yes, your cells need antioxidants to get themselves back into healthy cycles. Minerals – especially magnesium – and vitamins (B vitamins and D3 are the most important IMO) are also helpful. Antioxidants, minerals and vitamins have helped lots of floxies. Some people have been helped by glutathione injections. Some have been helped by NAC or PQQ or CoQ1 or CoQ10. I was helped most by the supplements listed in my story and, later, brewer’s yeast – which, it turns out is turned into uric acid which is a powerful antioxidant.

      Of course, it’s prudent and advised to get your intracellular levels of antioxidants tested (a functional medicine doctor can do that for you) before you move forward. Self-experimentation is valid too. Be careful and research, of course.

      Regards,
      Lisa

      • Lou August 6, 2014 at 7:47 am Reply

        Thanks for all you do. My mag is testing high is that poss despite floxing?

        • Lisa Bloomquist August 6, 2014 at 11:00 am

          I think that it depends on how they’re testing your mag levels. Are they testing intracellular levels or serum levels or urine levels? I spoke to a scientist working on some FQ related articles and he mentioned that FQs drain intracellular mag and that you basically urinate the mag out. I think that, in that case, it’s possible to have a lot of mag in your urine or maybe serum because it’s getting drained from cells.

          This stuff is hard and if a physician or scientist counters what I say with something else, you should probably believe them. I’m trying. It’s all hard.

          This article is interesting. It has info about FQs, mag and diabetes – http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(14)00217-5/fulltext Some answers may be found in it. If you do a search for “magnesium” on the Links and Resources page of this site, you can also find some good info.

          I hope that this helps and that it doesn’t just make your head hurt! I think that the stories on here give great advice in an accessible fashion. I really want to know why all this stuff works and why it all happens on a biochem level. It’s easy to get lost and overwhelmed by it though and, well, sorry for that!

          Regards,
          Lisa

        • Lou August 6, 2014 at 12:43 pm

          serum test, less reliable I guess, but I ‘feel ‘ better for the magnesium so still supplementing! Do you know how long the cipro drains magnesium out of the body for, short term, long term, forever? Right, I need to read your link now 🙂

        • Ruth Young August 6, 2014 at 12:58 pm

          Don’t believe the high blood level for magnesium. Well, it’s floating around in your blood, but it’s not in your cells. I even had a spectra cell test done that says what is in your cells, not just floating around in your blood and it came back normal. I did not have normal reserves of magnesium at that time. I barely do now. My teeth haven’t wiggled loose in about a week– a good sign. I don’t get as sore after exercise and I tolerate standing all day now without discomfort. So it’s coming around after six months of heavy magnesium supplementation.

          Chelate means to claw. FQ’s are chelating molecules that can claw the magnesium right out of your cells in a way nature never would have taken it, even if you were starving to death. It doesn’t get put back easily or quickly. Ignore all testing and keep pushing magnesium until all signs and symptoms of magnesium deficiency disappear. After that I would still take a maintenance dose. I think anyone who’s been floxed needs to be pushing magnesium (to a certain extent) probably for life. A small dose won’t hurt you and most Americans are magnesium deficient anyway. I plan on taking at least some supplemental magnesium for life. I was deficient in it before I took the Cipro. I felt sort of like I was being floxed before I got floxed, but had no idea what was wrong. I thought that was just how being middle aged feels. I probably had a low blood level of magnesium at the time I was given Cipro, making it a horrific drug choice for me.

    • Ruth Young August 6, 2014 at 1:13 pm Reply

      Shortly after I took the Cipro I found a research study that said MitoQ and Idebenone were able to prevent tendon damage from Cipro. So I got some of each and have taken them faithfully ever since.

      My left Achilles did sustain some damage. I would get sharp localized pain, followed by a sensation of a very thin layer of cells tearing and then relief from the pain. This stopped happening, but I was left with a bumpy spot on my tendon, which is still palpable months later. My tendon got very sore with almost any activity initially, then I would have to push it to get sore, now I have been able to hike very steep inclines and to run without pain or soreness there.

      So it seems like a bad, downward cycle was already happening in my body but the antioxidants did stop it and reverse it over a few months time and now I’m actually healing.

      My ankles are bothering me now. They were tight for a long time. My calf muscles stopped being tight and my ankles started with it and the tightness persists at times, but not as bad as it was. My ankles don’t swell as much as they used to. But they feel unstable. Maybe my dorsiflexors are weak– I lost so much muscle tone after being floxed, so maybe I need to focus on certain muscles even now. I started doing exercises to strengthen my arch and my plantar fasciitis disappeared. I am also obese so maybe the extra weight is just too much for damaged structures and weakened muscles.

      I don’t understand how my Achilles could have healed and now I’m getting tendon pain in my ankles. At least it seems not to be getting any worse. I jut notice the tendons in my ankles hurt and my ankles get more sore than they should after activity.

      So I would say MitoQ and Idebenone are effective, but you may still have a long road ahead to get to 100% healing.

      I also have a home ultrasound machine and I use it on my tendons at least a few times a week. Massage to tight muscles is also important to prevent ischemia– you want to get the blood flowing to the tendons. I wonder if the tendons in my ankles have been damaged in this way. I massaged my calves a lot, but my ankles I didn’t do as much.

  7. impossibleadversity August 8, 2014 at 2:30 pm Reply

    (continued)

    There’s a comment above about molybdenum. I can also say in large doses (~1g) it has a noticeable mental effect on me for whatever reason. I also took about 500mcg for 1-2 months at some point.

    I can also say (although I’m having problems at the moment) I didn’t really have serious relapses since the FQ, and most of the time I was eating another high source of purines. The times I wasn’t eating it, I was getting more fructose, which can also raise uric acid. Also that molybdenum now that it’s been mentioned. I have bad problems at the moment (hence slow replies) but I don’t think they’re FQ-mito-damage-related; unrelated trigger.

    Maybe the takeaway for uric acid is to avoid being too low in it, maybe increase it in periods of stress. It seems like a fairly natural method, because when you look at the high-purine foods they’re very paleo. I’m not so much afraid of gout (I think probably fruit are preventative) as the possibility of uric acid crystals in joints.

    I never found anything too helpful regarding superoxide dismutase (SOD1, SOD2, SOD3). There are liposomal SOD1 supplements but from what I understood they wouldn’t help if SOD2 activity is affected. The only thing I do is try to get enough manganese, since SOD2 relies it and there’s some research articles where it partly compensates (but for SOD1? I don’t know). Also zinc/copper for SOD1 but lack of testing means I have to back off. As a footnote, is some people do better on vegetarian diets; these are usually higher in manganese. Tendons also need it. Also somebody mentioned Pycnogenol above, I think there are studies that link it to improving SOD.

    What I took away from the first article in the bullet list (“A reassessment […]”) is not to take baking soda for too long (I did this for awhile too but not in athletic amounts). But that’s not news.

    One thing I haven’t tried is supplementing with BH4 directly, because it’s too expensive. I do the other suggestions, methylfolate, vit C, niacin, etc. instead, plus leafy greens, now sunlight and consciously uric acid, etc. Major conflict that comes up is that one of the suggestions to help BH4 is to limit protein, to help with ammonia and limit BH4 use, but you very much need protein for tendons and tons else.

    Anyway I’m out of breath but great article, sorry if I missed something.

    • impossibleadversity August 8, 2014 at 2:36 pm Reply

      (THIS PART COMES FIRST: My comment got screwed up by wordpress, tried to split it in half, here is the first part, before the continued above…)

      You can imagine I enjoyed this article. Puts it together nicely and the extra articles. I wouldn’t have been interested in it as much hadn’t you written about it in the first place.

      To me Dr. Pall’s idea makes sense at least locally or temporarily and I’m more or less following some of his suggestions strategically. The only difference is he seems (?) to imply that we have perpetually high NO levels, which I’m pretty sure is false, for me anyway. Baseline NO levels are probably too low, it’s when they rise there’s not enough BH4 and others to control it. Or something. I think you say practically the same thing. There’s a David Whitlock who argues for low nitric oxide (note leafy greens suggestion):

      [LINK DIDN’T WORK]

      No idea how reliable that is, grain of salt needed, and he goes pretty far in the opposite direction, but some of it makes sense. They say his idea contradicts (some does) but to me it just seems like he takes a broader view. Dr. Pall’s suggestions still seem good if you consider temporal rises in NO and shifting. I figure you want to combine these two ideas: raise NO but at the moment you do it you want the necessary BH4 and friends to prevent extra peroxynitrite (since I guess a little is normal) and uncoupling out of control, plus SOD. Hence the sunlight concerns. Course I’m far from a biologist so this is nothing more than trying to connect wild dots and needs even more salt. Whitlock also says tons of forced antioxidants all the time might not be good. I figure that makes sense but they also obviously do some good and it’s not clear how best to use them ‘strategically’ except in clear and planned periods of stress. I’m sure initially they probably help, but once things calm down might not be a bad idea to back off… I’m also trying to go back to elemental vitamins and minerals, but easier said than done…

    • impossibleadversity August 8, 2014 at 2:42 pm Reply

      Holy crap, WordPress won’t let me post the link, keeps gobbling my comment with no error message. Here it is with spaces, maybe this will work (remove the spaces):

      chronic fatigue treatments.com / wordpress / t reatments/ chronic- fatigue- syndrome- nitric-oxide /

      Please read comments in reverse order, thanks

    • impossibleadversity August 10, 2014 at 3:00 pm Reply

      (I think I jinxed it with this post because just as I wrote it I was starting a relapse of tendon symptoms after pycnogenol, has to be the cause)

  8. Lisa Bloomquist August 9, 2014 at 5:38 am Reply

    Both Lou and Impossibleadversity,

    THANK YOU so much for the insights, information and the really interesting conversation! I need to look more thoroughly into both of your comments, but here are some initial thoughts.

    I don’t think that the reaction is linear. Non-linear reactions are confusing as hell – to say the least. I suspect that there are adaptive responses that occur in cells that are actually healthy and good when those cells are exposed to harm. It is only after the harm threshold is crossed that both harm is done and it is perpetuated within the cell. I also suspect that each floxie’s reaction to supplements (and other things – like drugs) depends on what stage of harm the cells are in. Severely damaged cells react differently to antioxidant supplements than moderately damaged cells. I think that’s why some people have a paradoxical reaction to antioxidant supplements that help most floxies.

    I honestly need to do more research to confirm or disprove these notions. But those are my thoughts.

    Lisa

    • Lou August 9, 2014 at 5:45 am Reply

      LIsa you are a star, taking on all this responsibility and truly on a quest, you are inspirational!

      • Lisa Bloomquist August 9, 2014 at 6:13 am Reply

        Thanks, Lou! I just told my boyfriend that I think that I come off as smarter than I actually am when I write things like this post and the last comment. I am trying – and I think that I’m doing a decent job at putting together the pieces. But this stuff really is difficult and complex.

        • Lou August 9, 2014 at 11:40 am

          Better than anything else i have seen and positive and aimed at a fix, also not really angry which is the vibe from the forums i feel. Thank you 🙂

  9. Lou August 9, 2014 at 12:26 pm Reply

    Impossible diversity, is that to say doxycycline can fix this mess?? No nothings that simple, can you explain it in laymens what doxy can do and how lasting? …As by chance I have some in my cupboard 😀

    • impossibleadversity August 9, 2014 at 3:49 pm Reply

      It probably doesn’t fix it but in one study (the links are in other comments on this site) they used it to prevent damage by FQs, so it could prevent some degeneration. I’m not sure of all the mechanisms but inhibiting MMP is one thing it does. If you have some in your cupboard (??) make sure it’s not expired because it becomes toxic if it’s too old. Otherwise I can’t tell you you should use it or not, nobody really knows (?)… There are probably downsides too (gut)… I took a course because of suspected infection

      • Lou August 9, 2014 at 4:00 pm Reply

        Thanks will hang fire and what to see how I go. Yes I was given they 6 weeks ago for a chest inf that I though could be viral and was.

        • Lisa Bloomquist August 9, 2014 at 4:47 pm

          I wouldn’t take antibiotics without a confirmed infection. Doxy is well tolerated by most floxies, but it has side-effects. Doxy can cause c-diff and other serious problems. I recommend against self-experimenting with it. If you go ahead with it, please be careful and consult a doctor.

        • Lou August 10, 2014 at 3:00 am

          thanks i wont use it.

    • David Melvin August 10, 2014 at 10:20 am Reply

      Both levofloxacin and cipro increase MMP-1 and MMP-13 and additionally cipro increases MMP-3. ‘Theoretically’ it is possible to therapeutically apply minocycline and to a lesser extent doxycycline to offset the increase in the MMP’s during the initial acute phase of FQ toxicity, providing the patient has one (an acute phase that is). I have known some folks that have experimented with both drugs with less than promising results, mainly because of the unknowns. But unfortunately desperate people will do desperate things. The one person who experimented in the throes of an immediate shotgun reaction anecdotally had some tendon improvement but the observations where way outside the bounds of what I would consider controlled, but interesting none the less. The others experimented farther into their reactions (reactions that I would describe as chronic) with no observable improvement in tendon issues and maybe some worsening in other areas. To me the risk of injury from a systemic antibiotic far outweighed the rewards due to a number of factors and definitely played hell with their microbiome (which is one avenue that is horribly underappreciated and under treated).

      Lisa said another very insightful comment earlier in that “I don’t think that the reaction is linear. Non-linear reactions are confusing as hell – to say the least.” There are very few things that I know about the FQ’s for a fact, and one fact is these reactions ARE non-linear. It is engrained in the human psyche to search out patterns; unfortunately the FQ’s are currently playing by a rulebook that we are not privy to, yet.

      • Lou August 10, 2014 at 12:41 pm Reply

        Thank you for your considered thoughts.

  10. Lou August 10, 2014 at 3:10 pm Reply

    You were also taking pycogenol and the same happened to you… STOP now I carried on a while, not good.

    • impossibleadversity August 10, 2014 at 4:10 pm Reply

      Thank, yeah I stopped it after two pills and I started noticing problems the next morning, clearly the tendons. I highly doubt it would have been anything else.

      There’s this suggesting EGCG in green tea can help MMP (I forgot): http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/308/2/767.full.pdf but I always get mixed results from green tea, it’s just another black box

      • impossibleadversity August 10, 2014 at 4:17 pm Reply

        (I didn’t make the connection at first, but I just forgot to take them again)

      • Lou August 11, 2014 at 12:30 am Reply

        Meant to ask, what is MMP?

        • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 11:32 am

          It’s a protein containing zinc that degrades collagen and other in tissues and connective tissues. It’s normal but if it gets upregulated too much it eats your collagen.

        • Lou August 12, 2014 at 12:29 pm

          The key q on mmp then is if cipro down regulates it, how long for and if doxy up regulates it, how long for?

        • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm

          No idea.

  11. impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 11:36 am Reply

    Here’s another interesting article: https://www.lef.org/protocols/immune_connective_joint/gout_01.htm


    One of the most intriguing aspects of uric acid is that although it appears to be a “waste product” of purine metabolism, only about 10% of the uric acid that enters a normal human kidney is excreted from the body (Richette 2010). In other words, rather than eliminating uric acid, a healthy kidney returns up to 90% of it to the blood stream. The reason for this is likely due to the role or uric acid as one of the most important antioxidants in body fluids, responsible for the neutralization of over 50% of the free radicals in the blood stream (Glantzounis 2005).

    The ability of humans and primates to preserve blood levels of uric acid (due to slow kidney filtration and lack of a uricase enzyme) was probably advantageous to our evolution, by increasing antioxidant capacity of the blood (Alvarez-Lario and Macarrón-Vicente 2011).

    Humans and primates are one of the few mammals that cannot produce their own vitamin C, and may have evolved the ability to preserve uric acid to compensate for this (Hediger 2002). For example, blood uric acid levels in humans are normally about 6 times that of vitamin C, and about ten times the levels in other mammals (Roch-Ramel 1999). Like vitamin C, uric acid has a principle role in protecting high-oxygen tissues (like the brain) from damage, and low blood uric acid levels have been associated with the progression or increased risk of several neurological disorders, including Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (Keizmann 2009), Multiple sclerosis (Rentzos 2006), and Huntington’s (Auinger 2010), Parkinson’s (Andreadou 2009), and Alzheimer’s diseases (Kim 2006).

    That said I too have concerns about it at the moment.

  12. Lisa Bloomquist August 12, 2014 at 12:14 pm Reply

    Fascinating! Thank you so much for posting! I wish that it was a pure good and was inconsequential though. My left flank hurts and I’m wondering if it’s a kidney stone. I sure hope not. I’m laying off of the brewer’s yeast for a bit – at least until I feel better.

    • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 4:06 pm Reply

      Np, I have some related problems now too but the odds I could ascribe them to uric acid are maybe 1/3 at the moment…

      Hope it’s not a stone. According to that same article you do have to watch out for calcium oxalate stones. In the beginning I was worried about them because symptom-wise they fit the fill so I was trying to avoid oxalates specifically (spinach, and beets unfortunately…) and getting Mg citrate (not sure it helps but might along with malic acid). But if I have any stones they didn’t find them.

      • impossibleadversity August 15, 2014 at 10:54 pm Reply

        (But don’t worry I screwed up too and had been eating some things I didn’t know were high-oxalate)

    • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 4:18 pm Reply

      They do say this:


      There were no associations between total protein intake, total animal protein (including dairy protein, poultry, and eggs) intake, or purine-rich vegetable intake and the incidence of gout.

      I haven’t any info on where brewer’s yeast fits into that. Maybe “purine” is too generic and it’s only a subset of them that cause problems.

      • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 4:18 pm Reply

        And the part before that was:


        Data from the Health Professionals Follow-up Study, which followed over 47,000 health professionals for 12 years, revealed that individuals with the highest intakes of beef, pork, or lamb (>1.9 servings/day) and seafood (>0.6 servings/day) increased their risk of gout by 77% and 53%, respectively (Choi 2004a).

    • impossibleadversity August 12, 2014 at 4:33 pm Reply

      Or damn, maybe it does:


      Alcoholic beverages increase blood uric acid and gout risk (Choi 2004b; Choi 2004). In one study, individuals who consumed one beer or one serving of spirits per day had 1.75 and 1.22 times the incidence of gout, respectively, than individuals who consumed less than one drink a month. Drinking over 2 beers/day increased gout risk by 2.5-fold (Choi 2004b). Wine does not appear to affect gout risk. Alcohol metabolism to acetate accelerates the breakdown of purine-containing nucleotides (like ATP) and raises blood uric acid (Puig 1984). Alcohol can also lower body temperature in the extremities which may precipitate an acute attack independent of blood uric acid concentration (gout attacks can occur in alcoholics at lower blood urate levels than in non-alcoholics) (Vandenburg 1994). Beer, despite having less alcohol per serving than the other beverages, is more hyperuricemic due to its high purine content (Gibson 1984).

      I think I should stop spamming these and actually read it properly first lol

    • impossibleadversity August 15, 2014 at 9:58 pm Reply

      I landed on this again too: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22656407 I’ve been exposed to at least 3 of the antibiotics the oxalobacter are sensitive to. I wish could access to see what amount of damage they suffer.

  13. Lou August 12, 2014 at 12:30 pm Reply

    Jigsaw but fascinating I agree.

  14. Lou August 12, 2014 at 3:06 pm Reply

    Lisa I wonder if a high purine diet would be part of the key then… http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/gout-diet/art-20048524

  15. Lou August 13, 2014 at 1:05 am Reply

    Are floxies more likely to get gout than any other group? Or are you just worried about getting gout in general, from the high purine diet?

    • myquinstory August 13, 2014 at 7:35 am Reply

      I don’t think so. Floxies are such an eclectic group, so someone is always experimenting with something. For a while after the 23andme wave hit the community, some of the ‘so called’ internet health consultants were treating ‘experimenting’ with molybdenum in fairly high doses. They were doing so based on the SNP’s displayed on individuals genetic results. As a result I know of a handful of people who ended up getting gout like symptoms do to an increase in uric acid driven by the Mb.

      I even at one time manage to precipitate a gout like attack by consuming purine rich foods and a fairly high dose of Mb, even though I am not prone to gout, nor do I have the genetic predisposition to it, nor could my doctor even nail down high uric acid levels at the time. I have noticed, for me, when I eat a high purine diet I have higher pain levels ….still haven’t figured it out yet.

  16. Lou August 13, 2014 at 1:12 am Reply

    Impossible adversity, does this contradict? Early morning in UK, hard to comprehend Doxy idea 🙂 : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17260615

    • impossibleadversity August 13, 2014 at 10:41 am Reply

      I think that makes perfect sense. You would want to take doxy during initial exposure to prevent degeneration but once things are settled it might delay healing. MMPs do have a role in repair.

      I think this is a common pattern, similar to anti-inflammatories given for regular tendinitis, they might help in the acute inflammation phase but afterward can delay healing.

      But like you said it’s hard to say when that period ends and for FQ/NSAID-induced tendinosis, it’s not so linear…

  17. Lou August 13, 2014 at 1:20 am Reply

    OK am waking up, this is REALLY interesting esp the discussion section on tendon repair.http://www.ors.org/Transactions/55/1421.pdf

    • impossibleadversity August 13, 2014 at 10:43 am Reply

      Thanks, really interesting.

      It’s still hard to say what that translates to for FQ tendinosis. I guess if you suffer a clear rupture you could follow that.

  18. Maureen August 25, 2014 at 7:02 am Reply

    Great comments! Google L-Ornithine, urea cycle, Dr David Jernigan. Helped me a lot!

  19. impossibleadversity August 29, 2014 at 10:32 am Reply

    Probably worth posting: The recommended max amount of daily purine from foods is supposedly about 1800mg/day: http://librariannihilation.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/maximum-daily-allowance/

    There is also a google book that recommends 2000mg/day max (lost link).

  20. Frantisek Dezorz November 3, 2014 at 7:51 am Reply

    what about IV C and IV glutathione. they are antioxidants. why some floxies (me too) get herxes after taking them?

    • Lisa Bloomquist November 3, 2014 at 8:41 am Reply

      Hi Frantisek,

      Several people have been helped by IV antioxidants, but some people aren’t helped by them and some people even have negative reactions. I think that the differences have to do with genetic differences. There are some people with certain genetic markers who should not get glutathione IVs. I don’t remember what the genetic marker is though. I would ask a functional medicine doctor, or the person administering the glutathione IV, why you’re feeling worse after getting it done.

      Regards,
      Lisa

  21. Frantisek Dezorz November 4, 2014 at 9:38 am Reply

    hello lisa, thanks for an answer. i live in Slovakia, mid europe. iv glutathione is not in our distribution. i got iv vitamin c administered and I had a strong flue like reaction to it. later i bought liposomal gluthatione, much cheaper then IV and i dint need to go to hospital to take it. i had flue like symptoms too. and worsening of my FQ symptoms. (muscle weaknes, its been three months since being floxed, it is getting better and better, finally i got back to work, although it is maybe only 70 percent of pre FQ condition) i read than many people with FQ have experienced flu like herxes after IV C or IV G but more they took it, less and less herxes and finally some possitive results came. I wonder if anyone knows science behind it. Is there too may ROS in our FQ damaged cells and even few Glutathione or vitamin C will cause strong inflamnation when they try to reduce them? i cant find an answer anywhere. is it somehow prooxidant for some of us when we fist take them? i really wonder what is it behind it.

  22. Frantisek Dezorz November 4, 2014 at 9:52 am Reply

    well, there is no doctor i know who knows anything about FQ or IV vitamin C/ IV G herxes. There are few who recommend IV C for any condition and when a herx comes they say it is ok, it happens. but dont explain why is is so. none of them knows anything abouth glutathione, even nothing about G. preccursors, NAC or ALA. this supplements are not sold here and i need to buy them from abroad.

    if i didnt speak english a bit i would know nothing about FQ. and yes, your site, thank you very much, when i first got FQ reactions, very strong ones, and found some sites about how cipro is deadly, your site gave me a lot of HOPE. thanks. i needed recovery stories.

    it is very difficult to expalin my condition to my collegues and friends. whe i say i got an adverse effects of antiobitics, they look at them as if i was crazy. what i say know is that i got adverse effect of a medine which was first invedted as chemo drug and i unvoluntaliry went through small chemoteraphy. they dont understand a thing but word chempotheraphy is what they need to here to admit that there is something terribly wrong with me. 😦

    • Lisa Bloomquist November 4, 2014 at 10:27 am Reply

      I think that the chemotherapy model is the best way to think about fluoroquinolones. They have done cellular damage. People understand that – on some level.

      I’m glad that this site has helped you! It’s terrifying to have your body and mind fall apart and it’s good to know that other people have gotten through it. You’ll get through it too. Hope is helpful – try to believe it.

      I would bet that the answers to why some people react negatively to glutathione is somewhere in this article on liver metabolism – http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf. I’m not sure if FQs mess up phase 1 liver metabolism, phase 2 metabolism or both.

      I didn’t have any IVs and I have recovered fully. Everyone is different and I think that IVs have helped some people. Please just don’t think that they are the only way to recover. If you’re not responding well to them, try something else.

      I haven’t read this article yet, but there is a lot of talk about it among Floxies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24646995 And this was said about it –

      “FQ’s other than trovofloxacin can still exert influence on pannexins in an indirect way (or maybe even a direct way). Under direction from Lysosomes (via cell signaling), caspases (the executioners) kill the cell, pannexins, among other things, direct the orderly breakup of the cell in ‘bite size’ chunks. FQ’s directly affect several aspects of this chain. FQ’s, other than trovofloxacin, accumulate in lysosomes; Caspase levels, which in turn interact with pannexins, are also directly affected by FQ’s, other than trovofloxacin. In a nutshell, FQ’s, besides trovofloxacin, have their sticky little fingers in all aspects of the apoptotic process.”

      And this article was written about the pannexin connection –
      http://www.myquinstory.info/old-quinolones-dead-may-rise/

      I hope that helps! I wish I knew answers about why everyone is so different in how they react to different treatments. I don’t know though.

      Best regards,
      Lisa

  23. Frantisek Dezorz November 4, 2014 at 11:17 am Reply

    thanks again. dont worry, i dont think IV C or IV G are miraculous medication for me. i know i will get better without them. i was just curious why there are IV C and IV G herxes. that answer that it is a detox is not enough for me.

    actually, i have been floxed twice. first time in april this year. i was diagonsed to have chronical chlamydia infection. my doc gave me ciplox and azi combination for a month and then azi doxy for later. three weks on ciplox i stareted to have muscle weaknes, i stayed home for a month. next month symptms slowly dispaeared. i thought i was a herx reaction of bacterail die off. then i was diagnosed to have streptococus and oflox was the only sensitive abx. i took oflox for two weeks, then stopped, i didnt like parestesias it gave me. few days later i got strong neuropathy. it went away in a week. than i got IV C, which put me into a bed. flu like symptoms and strong muscle weaknes. all muscles, not just legs. very strong. it was 3 months ago. my doc doenst believe quinolones can make such long term effect,l well, aparently it can. now, seeing similarities with april ciplox weaknes i realised it must be FQ, althought it seems to be 3 times worse than first time. of course, everything is fine with me. doctors cannot find anything wrong. i would mind taking iv c or iv g even with flu like herxes, but they make my symptoms much worse. so it is a no no.

    thanks for links, i will read those articles.

  24. Frantisek Dezorz November 10, 2014 at 12:40 am Reply

    it is shame, i cant find scientific infmraction why IV C and I G cause herxing.

    lisa, thanks again. those articles are Great.

    i just have some sort of flare up? i was doing ok, three months since i was floxed, getting back to my job. but i got flu like symptoms, fever, tremors, and my symptoms got worsen. it is similar to how i felt at the beggining, thought it is not as strong.

    is is true, that with any kind od acute illness, FQT symptoms get worse and the illness is worse too?

    • Lisa Bloomquist November 10, 2014 at 12:24 pm Reply

      Flare-ups are one of the many mysteries with FQ toxicity. It seems that lots of different things cause flare ups for lots of different people. Everyone is different though. Some people have a flare or even a relapse with exercise, others don’t. Some have flares with dental work, others don’t. Some have flares with NSAIDs, others don’t. I haven’t been able to figure out the individual differences. We all, I think, have to listen to our bodies and ride the wave. What helps one person may not help another. But it’s a good thing to do to research and try to help yourself.

      It seems that stress and other illnesses do knock down Floxies more than other people. Maybe it’s because of the existing cellular damage. Maybe it’s because we’re more in-tune with our bodies. It’s hard to tell.

      • Frantisek Dezorz November 12, 2014 at 3:55 am Reply

        thanks for an answer. i am having dificult times. i was happy to get back to my job, but since thursday i feel difficult. sick. flu like. symptoms of weaknes got worsen, some of the feelings have been similar to what i felt at eraly beggongs of being floxed. it is getting better, though. it is a good sign, because during three motnhs of being floxed steps were very slow, not i feel everyday something different, sometimes things i havent felt during my floxie condition. well, some of it is similar to when i was floxed first time in april. thought back then it was about 3x less strong, 3x faster to recover. this flu like actually might be just another phase of my floxie condition, who knows. i hope if will pass soon, so i can start working.

  25. Lisa Bloomquist January 2, 2015 at 11:06 am Reply

    This is an EXCELLENT post that goes over what I said above, better. 🙂

    http://health-quest.proboards.com/thread/258/quinolones-ros-onoo-cycle

  26. […] effects on NMDA receptors.  Some of Dr. Pall’s work, referenced in the post, “Cellular Oxidative Damage from Fluoroquinolones,” shed’s light on the NMDA receptor […]

  27. jiwa January 29, 2016 at 8:25 am Reply

    How to reverse this damage, are there still a path of regrowing or regenerate a terminated cells? Of is this mean loss?

    Can course Cipro 500mg, 2x/day for two weeks could vanish the neurons in a brain to the point of permanent lost or is there any chance of natural neural regeneration for this heavy dose?

    What about GABA with NSAID? Is that permanent?.
    I remember took NSAID OTC two days after finishing my two weeks course of Cipro when I realize I can not sleep and did not help the sleeping problem.

    Now its already 5 month without a wink of sleep 24/7 and Benzo only make 2 hrs sleep with nightmares. Benzo now giving a short breath plus to the Cipro adverse symptoms.

    Life is tearing down without sleep as No sleeping no healing.

  28. tony March 11, 2016 at 6:43 pm Reply

    jiwa ,no idea but i am 2 1/2 months out ,only took 2 cipro 500 ,and 3 flagyl
    1 hours after the 2nd does of cipro and flagyl taken together i had a severe reaction
    uncontrollable shaking ,tremors, and spasms , tinnitus, severe metallic taste ,schitso thoughts severe insomnia , heart racing,chest pain , drenches in sweat
    happened every night for over 3 weeks with zero sleep thought i would have a psychotic break , broke down crying at night ,every time i tries ot sleep it was like a n electric shock in my brain and i had convulsions for 3 weeks along with the insomnia
    it went away but the extreme insomnia comes back
    i tried theanine and melatonin melatonin did not work theanine works somewhat
    but has bad side effects that last days , worsening brain fog and a sensation like my brain is vibrating in my skull ,i used jarrow formulas ,when i get insomnia bad i would crack open the capsule and take a little sublingually ,i only need a small amount
    i just received jarrow uridine from amazon , i am about 2 or 3 days out from a bad relapse where i did not sleep for 6 days now i sleep but it’s broken but no racing schitso thought or electric shock feeling , also i just started mag supplements a week ago , 250 mg pills 1 1/2 a day plus natures calm mag drink at night seems to be helping me

    i wish there was more discussion about the neurological symptoms here
    they are the worst of all , my tinnitus NEVER goes away the metallic taste went away but comes back though not as bad but the insomnia if you can even call it that is the worst thing of all ,it is the one thing i can not live with
    so i feel your pain ,at least the benzos work for you to get 2 hrs ,but i would try to refrain from GABA agonists ,my doc prescribed me lorazapam but i did not not even fill it i have every type of benzo in my med cabinet but i am afraid to take them, they stopped working for me years before being floxxed ,i had already developed a ridiculous sensitivity to drugs
    years before and benzos just seemed to have the opposite effect even a mere speck
    i like 1/32nd of a 1 mg pill , all pills make me get horrible anxiety like symptoms already

    the 1st thing i did was to stop exposure to fluoride best i could ,i always drink bottle water but i used to cook with tap and make tea and coffee with it
    now i avoid all caffeine and tea and roibos contain fluoride
    i also switched to aluminum free deodorant and fluoride free tooth paste

    i am also 99% sure that any type of MSG or free glutamate will cause a sever reaction and trigger me into a relapse of neurological symptoms
    you MUST avoid any food with MSG, or ever any form of free glutamaic acid
    i only eat organic now , nothing processed , no hormone no antibiotic no pestacide no herbacide only organic chicken fruits and veg
    read every label if you cant identify the ingredient do not eat it, i have got triggered several times already a couple times i thought what i was eating was safe but it wasn’t
    i been eating the same things over and over i am terrified to change my diet for fear of being triggered again but the last time i relapsed i think i did not eat anything to trigger me
    also avoid any stimulation at night , and try to get to bed early , i noticed after i felt better i stood up too late a few nights and then i had a relapse not sure it was caused by food or by staying up too late, if i stay awake too late one night then i can not sleep for a week it seems ,makes sense ,since i read that the brain detoxes itself during sleep if you stay up too late then less time for the brain to detox itself
    i plan on trying to add calcium, iodine , DHA and choline along with the uridine to my regimen
    this week if i can afford it
    iodine and calcium to chelate the fluoiride and the uridine DHA and choline to help repair the neurons and gaba receptors nto sure if it will help and i have not had time to do enough research i am just grabbing at straws out of desperation to try and feel somewhat normal again

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