Floxie Hope


This site is to give HOPE to those who are suffering from Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome as a result of being poisoned by fluoroquinolone antibiotics – Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox, Floxin, etc.  It contains stories of healing.

Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox and all other fluoroquinolones are dangerous drugs that can have devastating effects that cumulatively I’ll refer to as Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome or Floxing.  Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing includes damage to connective tissue (tendons, ligaments, cartilage, fascia, etc.) throughout the body, damage to the nervous systems (central, peripheral and autonomic), and more. The damage done by fluoroquinolone antibiotics can destroy a person’s quality of life or even kill them. Certainly, there is a time and a place for drugs with dangerous side effects. If you find yourself in a septic shock induced coma, fluoroquinolones may save your life. Unfortunately, these drugs are not being reserved for life or death situations. People are being prescribed them for urinary tract infections, suspected prostate infections, upper respiratory infections, as a prophylactic for travelers’ diarrhea, ear infections, pink eye, etc. Thousands of people have suffered needlessly from the devastating effects of fluoroquinolone antibiotics, when another, safer antibiotic could have, and should have, been used.

The damage done by fluoroquinolones is largely unacknowledged by the medical establishment and an accurate diagnosis, compensation and relief are difficult to come by. There is no known cure for Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing.  However, many people continue to LIVE after being poisoned by fluroquinolones.  They find healing, recovery, perseverance, compassion and hope.  These are their stories.

This site is meant to give hope for healing to those who are adversely effected by fluoroquinolones.  It is no way meant to disregard the pain of those who are chronically suffering from the horrifying effects of Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox or the other fluoroquinolones.  There are people who don’t recover.  Their stories are real and they matter.  There are also people who are able to recover and I share their stories with the hope that they inspire others, or at least give hope that recovery is possible.

Here is a New York Times article about the dangers of fluoroquinolone antibiotics – http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/popular-antibiotics-may-carry-serious-side-effects/?_r=0 – more news stories, research papers and other resources can be found on the “Links and Resources” page.

Here is a Facebook group that is a great resource for those going through Fluoroquinolone Toxicity – https://www.facebook.com/groups/floxies/

Featured post – I’m floxed. Now what?

The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution Ebook has helped many Floxies to recover, including DanielCindy and Ruth.  As a bonus, you will also receive The Floxie Food Guide – a book of diet guidelines to help you through fluoroquinolone toxicity:

flu tox get help you need banner click lisa




25,517 thoughts on “Floxie Hope

  1. Dee December 20, 2019 at 8:02 am Reply

    Andrea. I’ve always known D Mannose to be only a preventative of UTI but I did find this recipe to cure a UTI somewhere (I don’t remember where?) but no harm to try it?
    1 tsp. of D Mannose in glass of water
    Repeat every 2 hours for 2-3 days or until symptoms are gone. I have not tried it as have not had a UTI since being floxed. I do use NOW brand D Mannose powder. Just FYI!!
    Hope your UTI gets better soon!!

    • Sheila December 20, 2019 at 11:03 am Reply

      I also use the NOW brand for my D-Mannose – it helps to know that certain brands are recommended as proven by members in the community. I take capsules not powder.

    • Andrea December 20, 2019 at 2:58 pm Reply

      So I began to feel worse. I had been drinking so much water and cranberry juice hoping to flush my urinary system out. Then slight panic set in. I started to have a hard time peeing and the thought of worsening and having to go to the hospital or have an infection that went further I went to the doctor. I told her that I have allergies to cipro or anything in that family. I also told her I could not handle macrobid (this is another nasty antibiotic for me). She gave me Amoxicillin. I have to admit I am scared to death of adding something else to my body but if I don’t do anything I will get worse. From what I read Amoxicillin is one of the safer ones as far as antibiotics go. I did not see any black box warnings.. I have the 10 perimeter urine test strips and they showed infection and the doctors office urine test confirmed. To add insult to injury with all this I have tooth issues. I had two root canals in one week and still in terrible pain. The teeth started before the cipro btw. I am concerned over all this. Maybe the Amoxicillin will help the dental issue as well. This sucks.

      • L December 20, 2019 at 3:40 pm Reply

        If I HAD to take an antibiotic, it’d be probably amox, though nothing is really safe for us. I agree with you on the Macrobid also being especially nasty.

        Root canals are a bad idea. Toxic. It is the only surgery done where a dead body part is inside you. (I had three, paid $1000 cash each, and loss all three teeth within a year. I was angry at the time but now am glad they are gone.) Personally, I would have the teeth removed. You don’t need more toxic overload. https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/16/why-you-should-avoid-root-canals-like-the-plague.aspx

      • Madge Hirsch December 23, 2019 at 1:41 pm Reply

        Hi Andrea -I have taken Augmentin which is a mixture of amoxicillin and clavanulic acid ( stronger than Amoxicillin on it’s own ) since being floxed with no real problems apart from loose bowels. I took it for 14 days starting off iv then pills. I did take S . boulardii along with it and that helped with the diarrhoea. I have treated a UTI sucessfully with a mixture of oregano oil and d mannose.

  2. Dave pollard December 20, 2019 at 4:32 pm Reply

    Andrea, I got so caught up on recovery and being so sick that I neglected dental hygiene. Easy to do when you’re in such discomfort. Two root canals also ….Yikes!

    • Andrea December 21, 2019 at 9:19 am Reply

      Dave that stinks! I’m so sorry to hear it. I think besides deep fillings etc. Tooth nerve death can also come from internal inflammation. I am going to take fish oil to try and combat possible low grade inflammation. Just curious if anyone here has has the CRP or the ESR Sed test to check for inflammation? I am going to try and get those two tested.

      • Madge Hirsch December 23, 2019 at 1:52 pm Reply

        I had a real problem with one of my teeth in the summer. Dentist wanted to do a root canal despite x ray showing no infection or decay at all. I refused She filed the tooth down whilst waiting to extract as she had to check with my doc if I needed to stop my anticoagulant and the pain magically disappeared. I did a bit of research and came up with “tooth sprain”. Inflammation of the periodontal ligament. Well we all know what what causes inflammation of connective tissue don’t we? When I went back for the scheduled extraction I asked her if it could be the ligament and she said “yes”. Really she should have looked for it on the x ray. I mentioned Cipro and it’s connection with teeth problems and she was so rude and dismissive I will not go back.

        • Andrea S. December 23, 2019 at 5:02 pm

          Madge I am so sorry to hear it. That is very upsetting when a doctor dismisses it. This is so strange you mention tooth sprain and the periodontal ligament. I was just googling that last week and apparently it can cause a horrible tooth ache. I am going to up my magnesium intake. I am thankful your tooth ended up feeling better. I pray mine does. I seem to be getting tooth pain all over the place. I have had two root canals in hopes to save the teeth they are visible from the front. But now I am wondering f this is the cipro affecting me now. The tooth pain began before I took it, but seems not to ease up. Something is going on.

          For all of you who have been dismissed from your doctors I have a story. So after my son was born around 14 years ago, I started to develop some strange things. Numbness and tingling, burning on my skin, scalp and hair falling out about 1/3 of my hair fell out. Foggy thinking weakness. To this day I never found the answer but 6 years into it, it suddenly stopped. While I was trying to find out what could be wrong with me I saw a dermatologist. I told him my hair is falling out and my scalp is on fire. He told me to see a psychiatrist. I got in the car and cried all the way home. I felt defeated. 😦 Anyhow oddly reading some of your stories my old symptoms seem to correlate to some of yours. Maybe I was given Cipro in the hospital when I had my son.? My water had broken for a few days and it was slow leak I did not know of but I can’t recall if I got anything.. I don’t think so but you never know? After that whole ordeal I did research and was super careful of not taking any meds and lost all trust of medical doctors.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 24, 2019 at 2:42 am

          Andrea,the info of “medicines” they gave you in the hospital should be in your medical record.I think that symptoms,connected with FQ poisoning might be similar to that of other Fluoride “fortified medicines”,because one of the main suspects for the poisoning symptoms is the Fluoride,although the chemically made Quinolone’s on their own iare known to cause severe adverse reactions,as well.In fact,all unnatural substances are probably,more or less toxic to the human body,knowing the way our immune system reacts on them.

        • Sheila December 24, 2019 at 10:00 am

          Me too, I used to have a nice head of hair always down to my waist but after I reached my level of intolerance to cipro I have about 1/4 of the hair I used to, my doctor at the time said that I was losing it due to stress although I had a serious stress issue at the time I put on weight but the hair loss was strange I have had over 31 surgeries starting at 18 months old and some if not all were life threatening and one left me with a huge white patch of hair on my head but my hair never fell out till cipro. It’s really embarrassing and it’s changed how I manage it, I’ve cut it to just below my shoulders and since I’m losing it I decided to have some fun with it and it’s now purple, I mean what the heck why not. I have a lot of symptoms and some of my doctors take it seriously like my eye doctor, who took and extra 15 minutes to examine my retinas and my whole eyeball and the fluids; my dentist is aware and we are crowning my teeth since I seem to use my neck for leverage to pick up things since I am a leg amputee and use crutches, I have cracked the last two teeth on the back sides of lower and uppers so that’s 8 crowns, he’s xrayed and scanned my jaw bone and so far my teeth are doing ok, I have noticed that they are more translucent than they used to be they just don’t look like they used to and they are wearing down quickly. I have skin issues, I get little bumps that come up and when scratched a pasty white liquid comes out and then I am left with a literal round hole where the pore is and it takes forever to heal, my bug bites take forever to heal too, I get weird cracking and popping in my shoulders, wrists, ankle and knee and I ache all over. Like I have stated the worst thing other than the hair loss for me is the feeling that my body weighs 5,000 pounds I want to do things but I feel like I can’t move my body it feels like I am trying to walk underwater with heavy weights on me so I don’t get a lot of my wants accomplished. Recently I had two weeks where I felt normal so I hope that that means I will have more of those weeks in the coming months I hope so. It’s a process so I keep reading here but I am not getting any younger so I hope it hurries up 🙂

  3. Lukasz December 21, 2019 at 2:48 pm Reply

    Guys, any of you know if “Mixed growth of doubtful significance” from a urine test sample (microbiology report) and “No malignant cells seen – Urothelial cells with inflammatory cells” from a urine test sample (cytology report) is something to be concerned about? My doctor says all is well but why then do these two observations come up? Perhaps I’m misreading the results?

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 21, 2019 at 3:10 pm Reply

      I guess,urine is never 100% sterile,and the tests show that (if I understand it well) the inner lining in your bladder is reacting to some kind of irritation?

    • L December 21, 2019 at 3:49 pm Reply

      just did a quick search and someone else had the same question. This is the doctor’s response: “This report does mean that in the cytology examination there are no cancer cells.There are normal red blood cells that does part of blood cells others are normal part of the lining of the bladder & genitourinary system.”

    • Lukasz December 21, 2019 at 4:11 pm Reply

      Thanks. So nothing to be concerned about. My bladder still feels off as far as liquid in-take is concerned but safe to say d-mannose is helping with that. Any idea if d-mannose feeds pathogenic bacteria?

      • Don M December 21, 2019 at 4:52 pm Reply

        “Any idea if d-mannose feeds pathogenic bacteria?” NO. D-Mannose is a sugar that coats the wall of the bladder and urinary tract so that bacteria can not stick to it. E Coli has receptors on it’s surface that attracts the D-Mannose. Therefore D-Mannose has an affinity to e Coli that tends to ball it up and make it less able to stick to the bladder walls. D-Mannose is noted for working best against e Coli but since it makes the bladder and urinary tract slick it also helps to eliminate other bacteria too.

        • Lukasz December 22, 2019 at 10:17 am

          Thanks, Henk. Good to know.

        • Lukasz December 22, 2019 at 10:19 am

          ^ Oops. Thanks Don for the info. ^

  4. Andrea December 22, 2019 at 7:58 am Reply

    Thanks everyone for the infos about colonscopy.
    Another question. Has anyone ever taken aspirin after being floxed? I remeber a year ago, maybe more, I took it for 10 days straight for an inflammation in my urethra caused by a cathether, with no side effects, and today I took an aspirin because my back was killing me. I’m always a little worried when I take a drug now, so I’d like to read your experience. I know every floxie should avoid NSAIDs, but I remeber reading an article on this website that explained how aspirin is a little different from the rest of the bunch

    • L December 22, 2019 at 11:12 am Reply

      Aspirin is an NSAID. What you what is acetaminophen (Tylenol)

      • Andrea December 22, 2019 at 2:14 pm Reply

        Yeah I know, that’s what I meant, aspirin is an NSAID but it’s a little different from the other ones, so maybe better tollerated by floxies. I remember reading an article about it somewhere on this website. By the way, Tylenol never did a thing to me, and I seem to tolerate quite well aspirin…

    • Don M December 22, 2019 at 1:30 pm Reply

      Andrea………….. Read up on infrared light therapy. Totally drug free, totally pain free and safe. Cold laser units, light bulbs and light panels in the 660 to 900 nm range. It works!!!! The only down side is that one must use it over and over for it to be effective. I use infrared light therapy for pain relief. I NEVER use pain killer drugs. Use natural things like Turmeric, Ginger, Boswellia Serrata and other natural anti inflammatory things.

      Topical application of Magnesium Oil is also great for quickly reducing pain by relaxing the muscles. YES…. It works well. Just rub it on where it hurts and let it soak into the skin.

      There is a new thing that has come out. It is infrared heating pads made with “Graphine ” as the heating element. The graphine element in the heating pad emits infrared (deep penetrating heat) that is close to the frequency of the body. This works and works well to mitigate pain. Google to find out more about graphine. GET OFF THE DRUGS!!! Use “natural” things to help the body regain it’s homeostasis. This will never happen if drugs are used. Drugs will constantly keep the body from it’s natural homeostasis.

      • Andrea S. December 22, 2019 at 1:38 pm Reply

        I just noticed there are two Andrea’s here. 🙂 Future posts will include my last initial. You all are a wealth of information.

  5. Dee December 22, 2019 at 3:11 pm Reply

    So here is the latest. I posted awhile back that I seemed to have had a reaction to Lidocaine injected into my skin to remove 2 benign skin growths. I soon started to have small itchy red bumps pop up here and there for the past “7 weeks!” The worst reactions were close to the very slowly healing areas. A couple of new spots on my back started to even scab over! Soooo I went to my Derma and had her cut out one of the spots (without lidocaine, ouch!) and it turns out it is contact dermatitis! I found a article in a Dermatology journel that talked about a delayed allergic reaction to lidocaine causing contact dermatitis ( which is extremely rare) of course! Anyway the itching red bumps are driving me crazy!!! The typical treatment for the dermatitis is steroid creme. Of course I have turned it down. But these bumps flaring up and especially the itching is driving me bananas!! I’m trying to hold out hope that because I was floxed this is taking an extra long time to calm down??? I’m about ready to try a small amount of low dose steroid cream but of course don’t want to complicate things more!? Any ideas and or suggestions?? Do you think if I keep waiting it out it will eventually go away??
    Sooooo frustrated as I’m doing pretty good with the rest of my recovery!!

    • L December 22, 2019 at 4:05 pm Reply

      I would try to find an alternative. I have suffered with breathing issues for over two years now and they keep wanting to give me steroid stuff and I keep saying no. I would love to breathe normally again, but I don’t want to risk any of my myriad side effects coming back.


    • Henk Noordhuizen December 23, 2019 at 3:31 am Reply

      Dee,I have eczema seborrhoicum (or:Managers’ disease)since my first AB course (not an FQ but a combi of Amoxicillin and Metronidazole).It got less severe after some years,and Colloidal Silver worked very well,but because of the fear mongering I didn’t dare to use it on a continuous base.

      Cipro didn’t only bring it back but also made it even more severe,and untill now only CS really seems to work. A zinc salve seems to work as well,but because this eczema is on head and face,that fatty white salve is not my first choice for putting on my face.

      I’m not so sure that your form of dermatitis,after Lidocaine use,is so very rare.Because of it’s delayed reaction,and because not everybody will have a severe reaction like you (and maybe,other Floxies),most cases will get unnoticed by doctors,and many of them will not report on it,like with all adverse reactions on other “medicines”.

      So,I think that CS might be the best way to go,for now,with zinc- or sulfur salves as a second possibility.I hope,you get rid of it,very soon;keep us informed,please.I,myself,will start a more continuous use of it,as well;it’s so bad for self-esteem to walk around with these red,flakey spots on your face :-((

    • Madge Hirsch December 23, 2019 at 2:02 pm Reply

      Hi Dee – I have used steroid cream on bee stings without problem since being floxed but that was short term. I react quite badly with lots of swelling to bee stings. I would be inclined to try a tiny amount on one or two bumps and see how it goes. Have you tried any anti itch creams meant for hives ?

  6. Dee December 22, 2019 at 6:09 pm Reply

    Thanks L. I’m trying to wait it out and not use steroid cream. I need to eventually address this and put a stop to it and so far it just keeps on nagging at me. 7 weeks seems like a long time after the lidocaine to keep reacting? But I will try to grit my teeth and hope time will calm it down. It is getting hard though with these bumps and damn itching. I’ve been taking Claritin the last couple of days hoping that might calm things but I haven’t noticed much change?

    • Don M December 22, 2019 at 10:35 pm Reply

      Dee….. Have you tried Aloe Vera? Many jells available. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Aloe+for+itching&t=crhs&ia=web

    • Sheila December 24, 2019 at 10:02 am Reply

      If you are looking for a colloidal silver lotion I get the Vermont Country Store catalog and they offer colloidal silver in a lotion, soap and other items you might look for them online and see what they have……good luck

      • Henk Noordhuizen December 24, 2019 at 10:24 am Reply

        I really want to warn against CS lotions,soap,etc.: you need to look for a pure Colloidal Silver water product.Don’t buy a (very) high PPM product: 7-10 PPM will do fine and is practically risk free (oral),and 100% safe when used topically.

        • sheila December 24, 2019 at 10:28 am

          I have not assessed the value of the ingredients in this product I just thought I would mention it was available and let her decide if it’s ok. What do you think is wrong with this product?

        • Sheila December 24, 2019 at 10:31 am

          ok here’s the ingredient list:
          Sweet almond oil, Beeswax, Cocoa Butter, Coconut Oil, Shea Butter, Colloidal Silver.
          Made in USA.

          Here’s the description:
          Enjoy all the benefits of 99.9% pure silver, now in a thicker salve for relief from eczema or dermatitis. It also can be used for everyday scrapes, scratches, burns, poison ivy and insect bites. This unique formula includes colloidal silver in an all-natural, moisturizing base of sweet almond and coconut oil, beeswax, cocoa, and shea butter.

          99.9% pure silver
          All-natural moisturizing base
          Antifungal, antibacterial, and antiseptic properties
          Worth It’s Weight in Gold!
          Made in USA
          1 oz. jar
          Available only at The Vermont Country Store

          curious what’s wrong with it? I was interested in it myself please advise……thanks

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 24, 2019 at 11:46 am

          Hi Shela,first of all,it claims to be 99,9 % silver;in fact the CS part is made with 99,9 % silver.CS is made by electrolyse,and the amount of “solved” silver is measured in PPM (parts per million).No indication on the PPM!

          Then,this solution is mixed with several fatty ingredients,and NO emulgator??? Try to mix butter,or oil,wit a bit of water.No way;you need an emulgator!

          And then;how much (%) of the CS water(with unknown PPM) is in the final product? “Worth It’s Weight in Gold” ??? It would amaze me when it’s even worth the (probably very little ) bit of silver,if any,that’s in this product.

          The reason I make mine,myself? First of all: I use even purer silver: 99,99%. DTS meter,to measure the PPM of silver in my CS. I also have a water destiller,which I use to make high quality destilled water;I don’t want anything else than silver and water in my CS,and to be sure,making it yourself is the best way.Destiller: Smartstill Mark ll.Silver generator: Sota Silver Pulser (which has a second function as well: cleaning your blood from pathogens).

          You can,of course,buy laboratory grade destilled water;then you only need the generator.Although there are many on the market but I chose the one from Sota because of the high quality,and the second function.It’s the only one that is endorsed by Bob Beck,the person who developped the electrolyse way of making CS,as part of his Beck Protocol.It makes CS with about 20% silver colloids and ca. 80% silver ions.

  7. Dee December 23, 2019 at 12:39 pm Reply

    Henk and Don, thank you for your suggestions on treating my contact dermatitis. I ordered some aloe Vera gel and am trying some colloidal silver spray. Henk, how did you apply collidial silver? Did you have a spray did you put liquid on a Cotten ball?? Just curious. I sure hope time like most of these damn Floxie flareups will eventually make it disappear! Why do you think I’m reacting with the dermatitis 7 weeks after lidocaine? Do you think cause I was floxed it will just take an extra long time to calm down and go away? I hope!🙏🏻
    Hope you all have a very Merry Christmas!!!!
    As always, thanks for all your help and suggestions!!

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 23, 2019 at 2:32 pm Reply

      Hi Dee,yes,I’m convinced that,like most other things,like scratches,mosquito bites,etc.,these bumps and itches will take quite a long time to fully disappear,but I read that in many people this takes long,anyway,floxed or not floxed.

      I use the CS,like others who make it themselves,in the most simple,easy way;just pour a bit in my hand and rub it on the place where I need it.For the few penny’s it costs,why be overly sparse in using it?

      I wish everybody a Merry Christmas,and a very Happy New Year!

  8. Dee December 23, 2019 at 2:43 pm Reply

    Madge. That was kind of my thinking. If these red itchy bumps don’t start getting better soon I was going to test a low dose steroid cream on one bump to see how I did? Did you just buy an over the counter steroid cream or a prescription dose?? I hate to turn to using a steroid creme and I will give it a little more time but may have to try steroid creme to bring this stuff to an end!! Thanks Madge! Merry Christmas!!

    • Madge Hirsch December 26, 2019 at 8:59 am Reply

      Merry Christmas to you too Dee. Our steroid cream is prescribed by the doc who is a beekeeper too like my husband. I am not sure whether it is stronger than what you can buy in the pharmacy here or even if you can buy steroid creams over the counter here. I din’t think it is very strong .

  9. Lukasz December 23, 2019 at 3:11 pm Reply

    I’m a little early with this message but seeing as I may not have a chance to pop onto here tomorrow, I want to take a moment to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and a New Year filled with good health, make that great health, and much happiness. I’m truly blessed to have found this community and I’m very grateful for all the help and support I’ve obtained here. Thanks to all of you for being so kind over the years. God bless you all.

  10. Attys December 27, 2019 at 2:48 am Reply

    Since I was floxed I have lost huge amount of weight, I have never gained it back. For those who lost weight have you ever gained your weight back and after how long? I try to eat around 1600 – 1800 kcal per day, usually liquid food. 18 months later I am still on 20% lost of my original weight. I am also catching stomach bugs quite often (fever + joint paint, runny nose, sore throat). Has anyone suffered the same symptomps? Did it improve eventually?

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 27, 2019 at 4:04 am Reply

      Attsy,my experience is opposite;after the rediculous AB course with Amoxicillin and Metronidazole,my weight went from a little too low (57 kilo’s,for most of my life,while eating as much as a little family,every day) to over 80 kilo’s and it seems to be unpossible to get rid of even one or two kilo’s.Dutch-Belgian research showed that a bacteria they called the Akkermansia bacteria,regulates weight and is killed by AB’s.Main reason farmers give their cattle AB’s: fast weight gain,with lower food amount.

      I think your problem is poor absorption,probably because the FQ damaged the inner lining of your intestines.You might give Lactospore a try;it seems to help in healing the inner lining and did miracles for my guts.In some people it works,and it’s not expensive.I buy mine here:


      • Attsy December 27, 2019 at 5:00 am Reply

        Thanks Henk, it seems that numerous courses of atb which I took completely destroyed my gut flora. My body is very fragile because of that. I also have chronical small intestine inflammation, which I used to have before I was floxed (but didnt know), but was not really thin before, just quite normal, suprisingly I was also gaining weight before taking Floxin. To be honest from time to time I want to give this all up. I would just give anything to return the time back. For example I would love to follow all your advice not to eat pain killers. But it’s impossible for me so I take it only if urgent and urgent is like once a week (enermous joint pain, stomach pain, headache, toothache)….and paralen is too weak for me, so I take Aspirin or Nimesulid. I took so many pills that doctors gave me before which contraindicated with each other that I should be dead long time ago, so I am unsure if I ever get over it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 27, 2019 at 6:17 am

          Hi Attsy,I understand your desperate feelings,but loosing hope is the worst way to go.I think that the best starting point for you,to gain back health,is to focus on your intestinal health.Maybe,eating your daily food in several small portions,divided over the day,and with help of Lactospore (not a big investment;it’s cheap) might help to get your intestinal health back to a level where it starts to help restore overall body (and mind) health.

          I’m convinced that Paracetamol (Tylenol) is safer than Aspirin (made by Bayer,who also “gave us” Cipro,Heroin,and World War 2).Very important,for ALL painkillers:never take more than the advised max. daily dose,and,if possibe,stay on the safe side,so,max. 3000mg/day of Tylenol,in stead of the 4000mg/day,many doctors advise,and call safe.Take the pills,spread well over the day,with enough time in between to stay on the safe side.This migh also help to fight your stomach pain (Aspirin is known to cause stomach damage and pain)..

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 27, 2019 at 4:07 am Reply

      Forgot to mention;after the Cipro nothing really changed.The foru pills I took didn’t give me diarrea (don’t remember if I was using the Lactospore at that moment),and my weight stayed more or less the same;maybe gained another 1 or 2 kilo’s.

    • L December 27, 2019 at 10:06 am Reply

      I lost 1/4 of my body weight in 3 weeks. It took about a year to put back on, but part of it was because I was having such horrible breathing problems that I could only try to gasp for a breath or chew…not both. So I lived on nothing but smoothies for that year. My ND had me add a couple tablespoons of almond butter and also a couple TBL of coconut oil to each one which helped to up the calories.

    • sheila December 27, 2019 at 10:14 am Reply

      I will try to be helpful again – I have read many recent studies (within the last 6 years to present) that have studied whether or not the body recognizes liquid as food – the end result is that the body does NOT recognize liquid as a source of food so trying to gain weight by liquid is most likely not going to work. The study was done because of the gaining popularity of the liquids Boost and Ensure that most elderly people were deciding to just drink their meals and they were losing muscle mass at a fast rate. I have this discussion with my mom every day it seems, trying to convince her that drinking her meals is not feeding her body what it needs, she has lost 40 pounds by just drinking her meals for the past few years. Nutrients are released by chewing and the whole process of eating is what feeds the body. I hope you can find a way to eat food in it’s non liquid form and see some improvement.

      • L December 27, 2019 at 10:22 am Reply

        First, I would not categorize something like Ensure as food. It is a liquid base with added supplements and chemicals. On the other hand, a smoothie, (which is what I gained my weight back with) is actually food, just blended. I lived on these for a year: almond milk, berries, protein powder, spinach, almond butter, coconut oil. flax seed or chia …was a typical one. That is not the same as a “liquid” diet with manufactured drinks

        • sheila December 27, 2019 at 10:36 am

          yes that was my point I was using ensure and boost as an example but the reports also studied smoothies and any liquid food, the body just didn’t recognize it as a source of quality food I assume someone could gain weight if they drank enough smoothies again I was just trying to add some information that maybe the poster didn’t know or have. I got this from reports on studies which I do not have to reference as I never thought I would have to. I’ll just go back to reading only.

        • L December 27, 2019 at 11:08 am

          no, please don’t let me discourage you from posting suggestions. I just wanted to assure him that I did indeed gain back the weight on smoothies alone.

      • Henk Noordhuizen December 27, 2019 at 10:52 am Reply

        Hi Sheila,I agree with you,that not all liquids are recognised by the body as being food.The reason is simple;most of them hardly contain any food.But I don’t agree about the weight gaining,not being possible on liquids.Soda’s are liquids,right? And these are considered responsible for gaining weight,not a little but a lot (!) in all those kids who practically live on soda’s and other forms of liquid “food”.Babies,too,are consuming only liquid food during the first time of their lifes,and do gain weight during that time.

        • sheila December 27, 2019 at 11:03 am

          yes of course soda is not food, and the studies did not include stuff like that it was what we would normally consider liquid “food” like ensure, boost, smoothies, and even broth soups were included. And yes babies have a different way of processing food until weaned which makes sense. I hope everyone got the gist of my post though.

        • Attsy December 27, 2019 at 1:36 pm

          Sheila, I think that maybe liquid food are not enough for me, but I usually drink nutrition drinks + mashed potatoes some veggie, mashed meat etc…..As I am coeliac and fructose and lactose intolerant it’s difficult. I avoid all gluten free bread.
          L, I remember you wrote there you ate only liquid food for the first year and I should have done it too. I did not and after a few months after I was floxed I stupidly started to eat almost everything and fell into relapse. And as a “gift” I got fructose intolerance.
          Thanks Henk and Dee, I will hope that maybe I will gain something back. At least something.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 28, 2019 at 3:00 am

          “I am coeliac and fructose and lactose intolerant” Those are problems that originate in the guts.So;focus on intestinal health,Attsy.Lactospore,living probiotics like fermented vegetables (easy to make,cheap and healthy),and healthy (Bio)vegetables and Bio veg.juices (freshly made!) is what your body needs! I wish you luck!

  11. Dee December 27, 2019 at 7:58 am Reply

    Atsy, when I got floxed I too had stomach issues already. IBS, acid reflux, occasional diarrhea. I was overweight also. I lost 50 lbs in the first 4/5 months!!! I had a small appetite and wasn’t absorbing nutrients very well. Now 2.5 years later I have all my weight back on. I actually could lose a little! I just slowly started to get my appetite back and pretty much eat what I want now! I did take probiotics and that is about it. I would say time started to heal my gut!! Don’t give up! I’m sure in time with healthy eating and probiotics (some Floxie’s have a lot of luck adding fermented food). I would try to add more solid foods to your diet in small amounts! Lots of fruit, veggies and clean meat!

  12. Slovakia December 27, 2019 at 2:27 pm Reply

    Hi guys, i was toxic in april, i have question, can i eat candies (candy) ? Or my symptoms will be worse … tanks for anwer!!!

    • Don M December 27, 2019 at 5:07 pm Reply

      Any candy is sugar and sugar is bad for any person’s health.

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 28, 2019 at 3:12 am Reply

      Slovakia,candies are not a favour to your health,and mainly contain sugar and (artificial) coulurs and flavouring.So,guess what? Your candies are the perfect food for lots of bad bacteria in your guts and will only have a bad influence on healing from being floxed.The,most of the time synthetic/chemical colours and flavouring are bad for even perfectly healthy people.Better eat an apple,a day :-)) Oh,and an egg,as well (according to Dr.Mercola,whom I trust).

  13. Henk Noordhuizen December 28, 2019 at 3:03 am Reply

    Has anybody heard from Selcem,the turkish Floxie,lately? I hope she’s doing fine but I’m a bit worried because after her husband descided ti divorce her and their little baby girl,she stopped posting,here.Selcem,when you still read the FloxieHope messages,please,let us know how you’re doing!

  14. SLOVAKIA December 28, 2019 at 11:58 am Reply

    Thanks for answer, i drink before alcohol and candies and i think my symptoms are worse ( problems with vision, eyes). I have very strange vision , everything what have light, for exemple lámp, i see a lot of, hundreds floaters and rays from lamps to the ground.. its horrible and this is my the worst problem. I i visit my ste doctor, but everything is ok. So maybe its not only eyes problém but braun (nerves). Idk how should i heal from this , my muscles pains are gone but this … someone have the same problem? Tanks for helps! We are here all family

    • L December 28, 2019 at 12:35 pm Reply

      I had hundreds of those floaters too. So many it was like looking through gauze. I also had nerve damage with my eyes. But the floaters are not nerve damage. They are from the cipro attacking the vitreous. These poisons can destroy any kind of connective tissue. It took a couple years for most of mine to go away. Not sure how much it helped (although I believe it did) but I used 1% N-acetylcarnosine eye drops religiously, every day, twice a day in the beginning. There are two different ones I used. One is called CAN-C eye drops and the other is Vision Clarity. They are meant more for cataracts but I read they can also help with floaters, so I used them, and again, I do believe they helped.

      As for nerve damage, at one point I was seeing two different things out of my eyes. NOT double vision, but a different image out of each eye. My brain was not melding them together, like it normally. Luckily that righted itself. But I also lost some visual acuity and was diagnosed with macular degeneration just a month after the cipro.

      • Larry December 28, 2019 at 9:34 pm Reply

        L, I know what you mean by having a little envy for the suicide case. I Don’t have a filter and tell it like it is. I tell people yeah I really just don’t want to live anymore and they look at me like I’m crazy. Then I looking at them like they’re crazy for thinking I’m crazy. It’s kinda hard to go from super healthy and active to total body pain overnight and Living with the fact this might be it. This is me now.

        • L December 28, 2019 at 9:43 pm

          I hear ya. I was in phenomenal shape before this. Took great care of my body. Worked out regularly, had a good diet. Now I spend the better part of most days struggling to breathe, smelling grotesque chemical-like smells (olfactory nerve damage), deal with vision issues, and tinnitus so loud at times it makes me insane. All this because of a UTI, an ignorant doctor, a criminal drug enterprise and a pharmacy that didn’t do its job. I keep trying to hang in their, but those moments when I feel like I am quite literally suffocating to death, I have my doubts….

      • Larry December 28, 2019 at 9:55 pm Reply

        L, I’ve lived with tinnitus for many many years. But yes I know what you mean. Levaquin kicked mine up to a level that was insane. It would wake me up and I couldn’t hear anything else but this horrifying ringing and was in a panic because i didn’t know what to do. Fortunately mine toned back down to normal.

        I’m not sure what the original source of my tinnitus is but just before Levaquin I was having really weird tinnitus issues. I’d wake up and it would sound like an Elevator dinging. Pretty loud and scary.

        • L December 29, 2019 at 12:05 am

          Mine is a constant hissing/humming/whooshing/buzzing sound. AT times it is so loud it is deafening, and then it will go back down to medium loud and on very rare occasions it seems mild. What’s odd is I had SO many head to toe side effects after the cipro that were so devastating, mentally and physically that this went under the radar. Then months later, I remember asking a friend if when everything was quiet, if she heard “nothing” or heard a kind of humming or hissing sound. I guess I thought maybe it was normal…like ambient sound. She confirmed it was not.

      • Larry December 28, 2019 at 10:53 pm Reply

        L, I hope everything clears up for you someday. I don’t even think I had an infection and was given this junk.

        It was given to my mom for years because of sinuses and I found a bottle of Cipro in my dads medicine cabinet from 2 years ago and he probably had a virus cuz he’s never really sick.

        My cousins wife took Cipro every 6 months for uti when something else probably would have worked.

        In ZERO of these cases should Cipro have been given.

        I just happened to get the flox bomb dropped on me and this should have never been.

        • L December 29, 2019 at 12:13 am

          Yeah, shouldn’t have happened to any of us. What kills me is after a few years, in spite of having vision issues, olfactory nerve damage, tinnitus and peripheral neuropathy, I felt like FINALLY I could get back to my old life (mostly). Then this frigging congestion thing happened and it’s been going on over 2 years. So I had like 3 sorta normal months. And this is so debilitating. I feel several times a day like I will either choke to death or suffocate. It is wearing me out

      • Larry December 29, 2019 at 12:27 am Reply

        L, my heart aches for you. I don’t have it easy but it seems like you’re in another level of hell. I hope all us floxies can find a miraculous cure someday.

        I went to the ear Dr with my tinnitus that was kicked up by Levaquin. My actual hearing is perfect and I don’t have any sort of hearing damage. So the source of my tinnitus is a mystery really. I think it’s part of my family inheritance lol

        I hear a constant high pitched squeal. My tinnitus is about 6000 HZ. I always go to YouTube and play 6000 hz when people ask what I hear.

        That being said, I haven’t been able to be in a silent room in years. The ultimate torture chamber for me would be a quiet room. It used to give me anxiety attacks from time to time, but now the full body nerve damage does that. A special shout out to levaquin and the prescribing Dr. 😘🙄

        • L December 29, 2019 at 11:11 am

          Yeah, it has been nightmarish. I wonder sometimes how I am still alive. The absolute worst were the breathing-stoppages every moment of the day for months, the horrible visual side effects, and the olfactory nerve damage…just something out of the twilight zone and so difficult to explain because is so outside of what we experience normally. It would be like if you compared smells to noises….it was like everytime I stepped outside, or some one came over, every scent was screaming at me. A baked potato had the same strength of smell as an open container of bleach. I actually was sending emails and making calls to doctors around the world that specialized in this sort of thing, because if there was no fix, there would be absolutely no way to live like that, and I was desperate for answers. It did finally calm down but I still am sensitive to smells, and I also get these disgusting phantom smells almost daily and they are awful…used to smell like dirty ashtrays but now smell like chemicals. And there is nothing to do for it, since it is not actually coming from the nose, but the brain.

          The mental side effects were pretty horrifying too. Anxiety through the roof. Not like giving a speech anxiety, but like having a gun to your head 24/7. That lasted at least the whole first year. Plus I lost so much weight…I was 90 pounds, could barely walk, felt way worse than when I had pneumonia, and then had all this other stuff going on. I see people post on facebook things like “I have the flu. So awful.” Or “I hurt my little finger,” and I think …you have NO idea just how bad things can get..

          What bugs me most about the tinnitus, aside from making my hearing worse, is that I used to LOVE silence. That was my happy place. Just pure silence. No longer possible..

    • L December 28, 2019 at 12:37 pm Reply

      I also experienced EXTREME light sensitivity. It hurt to go outside. I had to wear a hat, sunglasses, and hold something directly in front of my face. Also weird sensations from fluorescent lighting. The sensitivity has gotten better but is not gone, and out in bright light, I get a weird effect from one eye, like there is a shade pulled down in front of it. Still also have weird sensations from fluorescent lighting, but not as bad as it was.

      • SLOVAKIA December 28, 2019 at 1:48 pm Reply

        Yea L, i have totall exactly this same problems. I order this can c eye drops, but i have fear, that this drops can make damage my eyes. I have sensitivity too, some colours on sky are very brightly… it hurts to eyes and strange feelings… i wearing cap always … yea … but i take it positively, we all have supernormal abilities ^^ … we must fight to the end … giving up is cowardice… I

        • L December 28, 2019 at 3:30 pm

          They won’t hurt your eyes. Thousands of people have been using them for years. But I don’t agree re: cowardice. I would never judge someone who gave up. I prayed for death the entire first year, as I gasped for breath and could barely walk. In fact, a friend had committed suicide during this time, and while everyone else was saying “how awful. what a waste,” I was thinking “he’s so lucky. I wish I had the courage to do that.”

  15. Michael December 28, 2019 at 8:39 pm Reply

    Does anybody find their neuropathy is worse in the morning? Any ideas why and/or solutions?


    • Larry December 28, 2019 at 9:10 pm Reply

      Michael, mine seems to be worse when I get to moving around. Some morning I wake up with zero symptoms and them boom. It all starts back up when I move around. The tingling, burning and sand paper feeling all over my body. This is assuming I have nerve damage anyway. No official diagnosis.

      • Michael December 28, 2019 at 9:27 pm Reply

        Larry I had small fibre neuropathy diagnosed by a Neurologist with tests. How long ago was it you were floxed? I’m coming up to 6 months. My upper limbs are generally good although I get low grade ‘sandpaper’ feeling sometimes also. Mainly the issue is in my legs from my shins down to my ankles and feet. I take a bit of gabapentin that seems to help but I don’t know what to expect … is a complete return to normal likely?

        • L December 28, 2019 at 9:39 pm

          The neuropathy in my hands left, but all my toes remain numb. I keep wondering if it has something to do with the feet being furthest from the brain….

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 29, 2019 at 1:10 am

          I got numb beeling all over my body.My feet,part of my legs,of my belly,and my back and arms.But not from the Cipro I used in sept.2016 but from Amoxicillin and/or Metronidazole,in june 2004.I used both,in combi,back then,so if one,or both caused the damage isn’t clear.I used only 4 pills of Cipro and although I have lots of damage from those,it doesn’t seem to have worsened the numb feeling that much,although it caused quite a bit of nerve damage in other places.

        • Larry December 28, 2019 at 9:46 pm

          Michael, I’m 8 months out now. My symptoms were horrible for about 4 months or so. Felt like my entire body was on fire. My face burned and burned and burned. It still does but much more mild now. The tops of my hands no longer burn. My symptoms have toned down but still not gone.

          I get the pins and needles sensation in my back when I sit and mostly San paper everywhere else. I got all the tingling and such in the feet and foot burning off and on. I’m 100% uncomfortable but not in complete agony like I was. Though a week ago it felt like my legs were in fire again when I laid down. Took me a while to get to sleep.

          My neurologist didn’t do any test not like it matters I suppose. I’ve asked 3 times and he said yes it’s possible to get back to normal someday. I read a story (not here) about a woman who had “horrible nerve damage” from macrobid and hers went away in 4 years.

          Also, one of my friends is a Floxie and she had burning feet and legs and I think hers went away. I talked to her the other day and her only remaining symptoms is in her shoulder and neck “from an old injury.” So that might not be related to getting floxed at all.

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 9:56 pm


          Yes you are right. The theory is that the mitochondria take longer to travel from the cell body in the dorsal root ganglion to the feet. So the ones that get there are ‘older’ and less efficient (more oxidative stress). They also take longer to be replaced (fresh one shave farther to travel).

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 10:00 pm


          Most people seem to say 18 months to 2 years …

          I had sympathetic sudomotor response testing done because that was all that was available in Australia. I even had to travel to get that as in New Zealand where I live they have nothing of the sort.

          But in America you can have skin punch biopsy for nerve fibre density. So with neurophysiology and punch biopsy you can know if you have large or small fibre damage.

          I found gabapentin very effective in relieving the pain but I want to come off all meds. The symptoms many people have seem to be similar to fibromyalgia (whole body pain etc). A relative of mine in the states has fibromyalgia and she got good relief with Lyrica (pregabalin). May be worth consideration.


        • L December 29, 2019 at 12:07 am

          I believe, and one doctor agreed that some of this horrible nonstop congestion I have may be at least in part autonomic nervous system damage, so he put me on gabapentin. I had to stop after a week because it made it all so much worse.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 29, 2019 at 1:39 am

          Lyrica (pregabalin):

          “A very bad reaction called angioedema has happened with this medicine (pregabalin capsules). Sometimes, this may be life-threatening. Signs may include swelling of the hands, face, lips, eyes, tongue, or throat; trouble breathing; trouble swallowing; or unusual hoarseness. Get medical help right away if you have any of these signs. ”

          “Talk with your doctor if you plan to father a child. This medicine made male animals less fertile and caused sperm changes. Birth defects also happened in the young of male animals treated with this medicine (pregabalin capsules). It is not known if these problems happen in humans.”

          When it causes changes in sperm,what will it do with our already damaged DNA? And the angioedema risk doesn’t sound inviting,too.

          Source (above is from the overview page;I didn’t even look at the side effects page”) :


          In short: just a typical Farmafia poison !

        • Larry December 28, 2019 at 10:01 pm

          Michael, also I read that Acytl l carnatine has been shown to regenerate nerve fibers at a good quality so I started taking that. However nothing works over night.

          Supposedly Viagra has been shown to help nerve damage as well. Something like taking it everyday for 90 days. Not sure I want to take another pill though. Or struggle trying to convince a Dr. I need 90 pills of viagra for nerve pain.

        • L December 29, 2019 at 12:08 am

          That is on a list of supplements I just started taking for nerve damage: ALA, acetyl l carnitine, inositol, the b vitamins and esp b12. Fingers crossed.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 29, 2019 at 1:48 am

          Acetyl-L-carnitine does,indeed,seem promissing,and waaaay safer than Lyrica (pregabalin):

          “Peripheral neuropathy: Meta-analyses from 2015 and 2017 both conclude that the current evidence suggests ALC reduces pain from peripheral neuropathy with few adverse effects.[7] The 2017 review also suggested ALC improved electromyographic parameters.[8] Both called for more randomized controlled trials.”



        • Henk Noordhuizen December 29, 2019 at 1:56 am

          Viagra,everyday for 90 days? NO WAY! NOT ME! ;-))

          I can’t find any reliable source of information on this one.Might be because,when you do a search on “Viagra”,the first 237,or so,pages that show up are webshops that offer the product.Are you sure this isn’t just a rumor,made in China,to promote one of their most popular farmaceutical products?

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 10:05 pm


          Yes that’s right re: viagra I think it’s meant to improve blood flow to the nerves.

          I take acetyl L carnitine. I also take alpha lipoic acid for that reason. B6 and B12 are also meant to help as is folate. And I take magnesium like everybody says!

          Really want to be back to normal one day 😦

        • Larry December 28, 2019 at 10:12 pm

          Michael, yes I crave to be back to normal. My life has taken a complete downturn. I’m a lost zombie.

          I also want to take a baseball bat to the Dr. that gave me that crap. So if you ever hear about a Floxie from Texas USA that took a baseball bat to a Dr. that will be me.

        • L December 29, 2019 at 12:09 am

          we’ll all be character witnesses.

      • Michael December 28, 2019 at 10:20 pm Reply

        I feel the same way. I ended up taking 4 weeks of this crap. I went to a number of doctors including the prescriber and twice to ED with pins and needles but they couldn’t diagnose me and just said I was stressed ….

        I’m a lot better like all the brain fog, joint pain, visual issues and tinnitus have gone. But the neuropathy at least in my feet is quite persistent.

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 10:24 pm

          Having said that I ran 5kms today so getting there!

        • Larry December 28, 2019 at 10:27 pm

          Michael that’s good news. At least there is improvement. 4 weeks? Did they say you had prostatitis?

          I got diagnosed with prostatitis 10yrs ago but I really have tight pelvic floor muscles. I’m doing physical therapy for that now.

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 10:58 pm

          The prostatitis thing was another joke also.

          One urologist said I had a muscular issue then another urologist gave me the Cipro anyway ‘just in case’ only then did they do semen cultures which grew Cipro resistant E. coli….. so I was on the Cipro for 4 weeks for nothing.

          Finally I got onto Augmentin for 6 weeks and got better from the prostatitis.

          This is definitely better than prostatitis by the way. That was another beauty…. I moved from the chronic prostatitis forums to the floxie forums!

        • Larry December 28, 2019 at 11:07 pm

          Michael sorry to hear that. Sounds like you’ve been through the ringer like I have been.

          I’ve lived with chronic pelvic pain for 10yrs. Which has been a nightmare itself. Guess that wasn’t good enough though so I had to become a Floxie with head to toe nerve issues. I forgot to mention my tongue and lips tingle too.

        • Michael December 28, 2019 at 11:17 pm

          Sorry to hear that Larry. Prostatitis is really harsh. I had the tingling in the face also at first but I don’t seem to get it any more.

          Hope you get better soon.

  16. Andrea December 29, 2019 at 7:03 pm Reply

    Reading all these comments about prostatitis, I want to share my “knowledge”.
    I have a lot of issues with my bladder. Basically, from the exams I’ve done, it expands too much, so it doesn’t “push” all the urine out, and the result is a constant feeling of pressure on my pelvic area and I go to the bathroom very very often. I’m talking about at least 10-12 times day and night, but sometimes even more. So I’m lucky if I can sleep 3 hours straight at night. Maybe 4 if I’m blessed. Many times I can’t even sleep because of that pressure. Anyway, the cause of all this trouble isn’t clear. Some say it could be my bladder neck, some say it could be genetic, some say it could be the prostate. I don’t really think that the root of my problem are prostate related, but an iflammed prostate can defenetly make things worse. So some time ago, a couple of months, more or less, I gave up cold turkey, 2 foods that, according to many studies, your prostate hates : milk and any kind of dairy and eggs. I also avoid sugar as much as I can, but after 10-12 days of a dairy and eggs free diet, the pain in my pelvic area started to get a little better. So, to anyone who’s suffering from prostate issues, I suggest to try to avoid these kind of foods and see what happens.

    • Larry December 29, 2019 at 7:11 pm Reply

      Andrea, I have the frequent urination, pain etc. I go to a pelvic floor physical therapist now. All my problems are related to tight pelvic floor muscles. When she touches certain ones I can feel the pain and she’s confirmed it’s certain muscles that are tight. Mine is mostly problematic on the left side.

      Pelvic floor therapist are hard to come by, but I’m fortunate to live near 2 facilities that do it.

      • Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 4:40 am Reply

        I think you are right about the tightened pelvic muscles being (part) of the problem;I can even feel my whole underbelly being tight when I wake up,and sometimes during the day.It feels painfull when putting pressure on it and sometimes it relaxes after a bit of massage,but,it being an uncontrolled impulse,my best results are just concentrating on relaxing those muscles and letting the stress out with every time of breathing out.I think this problem is,mostly,stress related.

        Every morning,when I wake up,I’m exhausted,and the lower part of my body feels like trembling,the legs being the worst.It feels as if I walked for tens of miles while being asleep (untill now no proof I really do :-)) This all started after being pushed by my (then) doc to use Losec,a PPI,and after some years other symptoms added,untill,after 15 years,I had the full,long list of magnesium defficiency symptoms,except for PMS (women’s problem;I’m a man).During that last 6-7 (of my 15 “Losec” – )years the cardiac arrythmia where there,too,and although they felt like getting worse after a few years,I got used to them untill they got so serious I was brought to the ER,twice,in two weeks.

        Right after the second time I stopped using the Losec,and all the mag.deficiency symptoms started to vanish,but this sleeping- and pelvic “stress” problem seem to be cause by prolonged magnesium damage,and permanent (nerve?) damage.I do still use Flecainide Acetaat,for the arrythmia,in spite of the fact I’m more or less convinced I don’t need them anymore (just,out of fear for another such bad ER experience,or worse),and the Flecainide,causing 2 intestinal bleedings because it made my droppings rock-hard,combined with Cipro (after my doc told me she was adviced,or even forbidden to combine those two “medicines) brought me here,on FloxieHope.

        When I told her (my doc) that I stopped the Cipro after 4 pills,because of the extreme adverse reactions,she even got angry at me,shouting (yes;she does,sometimes;she’s a real professional!) I should have finished the whole course,all 20 pills! She only calmed down when I told her I stopped after consulting the weekend doctor,and with his agreement.

        So,when I,sometimes,am very harsh to,and cynical about doctors,and the Farmafia,please,forgive me.They ONLY destroyed my health,and the pleasant part of my life for their own good. Making me to just trying to survive,instead of enjoying my life,during the last 20+ years.

    • L December 29, 2019 at 11:34 pm Reply

      Although I don’t have a prostrate, I was having severe pain in that area, and also could not fully relieve myself. I would get up to go to the bathroom, at it’s worst…20-30 times a night. After about a year, and with the help of freeze dried aloe vera and traditional Chinese medicine it finally corrected. I mentioned this before I think it is all related to interstitial cystitis from the flqs. https://www.pelvicsanity.com/single-post/2017/06/21/Interstitial-Cystitis-or-Chronic-Prostatitis-in-Men-Is-there-a-meaningful-difference

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 3:34 am Reply

      Hi Andrea,you wrote that after 10-12 days of a diary- and egg free diet (I guess that includes cheese?),your pelvic pain got a little better.Did you stop the diet after those 10-12-days,or did you continue,and,if so,do the improvements keep coming? I never heard od milk (and other diary),and eggs as a cause of prostate problems (those are ancient foods,even in cheese form),but one never stops learning.Pasteurated and sterillised milk are,indeed,not very healthy.

      If possible,please,give us some links to the milk and egg connection to prostate problems.

      • Andrea December 30, 2019 at 7:35 am Reply

        Henk, anyone is free to belive what he wants, so I’m not trying to push my opinion on anyone, but there’re plenty of studies about dairy (expecially milk) consumption and prostate issues (including cancer). And it makes sense to me : the prostate is a “sponge” of male hormones, dairy, milk expecially, is full of hormones, I’m talking about even the healthiest, most organic milk you can find, and that’s because it is intended to make a little cow/sheep/goat grow up, so those hormones are not really what you really want to eat if you’re a human, and expecially, if you have prostate issues. Plus it contains lots of saturated fats, another thing that inflame the prostate. Eggs not only contains a lot of cholesterol, but also lots of choline, which is important to nerves and brain function, but in big amounts it is very cancerogenic to the prostate, according to some studies. Here’s a brief video of a doctor that I follow for some information, but anyway, just google milk/dairy consumption and cancer, or eggs and prostate cancer.

        PS Anyway I’m still eating a dairy and eggs free diet, and while the bladder/urological issues never went away they’re a little better, not much, but still something. I don’t know maybe it’s just a coincidence. Not only that, I’ve always noticed (even way before becoming a floxie) that when I eat any kind of dairy, my skin gets a lot greasier and many pimples appear. Also mucous production (nose and throat) increase exponentially. I’ve never had any issues diogesting milk anyway (no bloating or gas after eating/drinking it). Oh and another thing, after giving up dairy, all my joints/bones pain greatly diminished, I’m even able to run again, 2-3 times a week, when before if I run for a couple of days a week, I should stop for at least another week, because the pain in my ankles was unbearable. Remember, dairy is connected to autoimmune diseases, I’ve heard about lots of people with rheumatoid arthritis that went almost pain free by just avoiding dairy (or other foods).
        Why don’t you do what I did? Just avoid milk and dairy for a couple of weeks, and see what happens, see if you notice the same things I’ve noticed and let me know. Nothing bad it’s going to happend to you anyway…

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 8:34 am

          Andrea,I don’t have any prostate issues,right now,so,how could I tell the difference when switching to an egg and diaty free diet? And of course you are free to believe whatever you want,and write about your opinion;I appreciate it,although I don’t always agree,the skeptic that I am ;-))

          You didn’t place the link to the video;maybe in an update? And links to the articles you found on eggs,diary and prostate issues are welcome,as well.Thanks in advance.

        • Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 8:36 am

          Andrea,I don’t need the video link;it was not visible in the mail but I noticed it is visible on FloxieHope.I’ll watch it tonight.Thanks!

  17. Andrea December 29, 2019 at 7:08 pm Reply

    Also there are plenty of TENS devices on the market that supposedly can help with pelvic floor issues

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 3:54 am Reply

      Years ago I had prostate problems,and peeing was slow.Sometimes it felt like my bladder was not emptied 100%,and in the area I was some pain and discomford. Then I used my magnetic pulser and,after it initially got worse (the pain,not the peeing),things got better,and after 2-3 weeks I stopped using the pulser.The improvements kept comming up to a point where I could be satisfied,but I felt that things were not yet 100% oké.Then I descided to supplement zinc,first with a high dose,after a few weeks bringing it down to 50 mg/day,untill I felt great,and had to get used to my restored peeing “force” Was like beeing 18 myears old,again ;-))

      Now and then,when I have the feeling the problem starts comming back,I use the 50 mg Zinc supp for as long as the container lasts (60 caps=60 days),and sometimes use the magnetic pulser for a fwe days,on that area,and untill now it works fine for me.I eat 1-3 eggs a week (want to up that to one/day because of the choline),and drink +/- one glass of milk/day (most of it during the night when waking up because of stomach acid problem),and,being a dutchmen,hooked on cheese since I was a little boy,I eat cheese,every day.

  18. Don M December 30, 2019 at 12:17 am Reply

    To all you that are discussing IC and chronic prostatitis. Look into infrared light therapy for discomfort relief. There are bulbs, panels and hand held cold lasers available. It is not a lasting fix but there is no harm in repeating it often. It works! Been used world wide for many years. Cold laser and infrared light therapy is ignored far to often.

  19. Michael December 30, 2019 at 2:47 am Reply

    I will say regarding prostatitis, I was getting sicker and sicker with my Cipro – resistant infection, the urologists were not picking it up on simple urine cultures because it doesn’t show. I had two have TWO semen cultures before it was picked up. If it wasn’t I would have chronic prostatitis now I believe. The bacteria form biofilms in the prostate which make it really hard to cure with antibiotics…. holy crap I’m glad that’s over.

    • A.Coleman December 30, 2019 at 8:05 am Reply


      I had a bout of prostatitis about 15 years ago and the first round of antibiotics didn’t kill it. Thankfully the doctor at the time suggested that instead of more antibiotics I should try an herbal remedy. He told me to go buy some Saw Palmetto tablets. In about two weeks the infection was gone and hasn’t come back again.

      Wow a doctor that didn’t keep pushing pills when they didn’t work. Where was he when I was given Cipro for a non-existent urinary track infection???

      Try Saw Palmetto and see if it doesn’t work. I think you are in N.Z. You can probably get it there; but it is an extract from a palm leaf found in the southeastern US if you are having problems.

      • Michael December 30, 2019 at 12:01 pm Reply

        Hi A.Coleman

        Thanks. Yeah I tried saw palmetto at the time just from reading up on it. It was good but mine was well and truly acute bacterial prostatitis and cleared up with Augmentin. Thankfully that’s well and truly behind me – I haven’t had any symptoms for 4-5 months.

        Regarding the gabapentin/pregabalin question others including Henk have commented on. Personally I did not try pregabalin. I have been taking a very low dose of gabapentin 300mg three times per day. I was able to come off all other pain meds (nortriptyline etc). I found it helpful and without much in the way of side effects (maybe a little ‘chilled out’ only). I can’t say whether I recommend it or not but I has worked for me (in additional to all the natural stuff like mg and ala we keep talking about). Also I’m not sure whether it may help promote neurogenesis.

        Gabapentin Enhances Neurogenesis in E14 Rat Embryonic Neocortex Stem Cells.
        Paknejad B, et al. Drug Res (Stuttg). 2015.
        Show full citation
        Many anticonvulsant drugs have been studied for their non conventional therapeutic effects on neurodegerative diseases but merely a few demonstrated potential neurogenic characteristic. Gabapentin as a well-known mood stabilizer was studied for its potential capability to promote neurogenesis in embryonic rat cortical stem cells. Rat E14 cortical stem cells were exposed to gabapentin during differentiation for 7 days and subjected to immunocytochemistry. The phenotypic changes were evaluated in the ultimately survived and differentiated cells. Gabapentin (16 µg/ml) exposure significantly increased the number and percentage of MAP2 immunopositive neurons with no significant alterations in nestin or GFAP immunopositivity in neural or glial progenitors. The enhanced number of neurons by therapeutic doses of gabapentin via augmentation of the neuronal differentiation in neural stem cells may participate to the therapeutic properties of gabapentin in the treatment of mood disorder.

        © Georg Thieme Verlag KG Stuttgart · New York.



  20. Henk Noordhuizen December 30, 2019 at 5:57 am Reply

    For those with IBS.It might be usefull for other gut problems as well (my guess;just give it a try):


    Again;natural remedies prove to be superiour to synthetic/chemical ones!

    • Andrea December 30, 2019 at 7:44 am Reply

      From the article :
      “They recommended that those with IBS who do not have serious constipation or diarrhea should take one to two capsules three times a day for 24 weeks.”
      Then waht the hell are IBS symptoms supposed to be? Ever since I’ve taken that Enterelle crap, I’m suffering from cronic constipation or diarrhea. When I eat junk food I’m less constipated but I have at least 2 bowel movements that are not normal, and when I eat super healthy (lots of vegetables, legumes, fibers in genral) I can’t digest them and I get super bloated and constipated…

  21. Larry December 30, 2019 at 10:15 pm Reply

    does anyone here live in constant regret? Like you can’t think about anything else but being a floxie and all you think about is how you didn’t take those pills and you’re fine?

    Other than the full body nerve pain I struggle constantly with the mental fallout.

    • Michael December 30, 2019 at 10:25 pm Reply


      I know what you mean. I keep thinking if I didn’t take that Cipro I would be like I was at the beginning of 2019. Basically on fire. At a real high point in my life. Productive, alert, energetic, training 3-4 times per week, working hard, studying etc

      3-4 months of my life basically wiped off altogether.

      Right now, I’m better, but nowhere near where I was. I’m still tired, still have neuropathy etc

      I feel really bad about. The only way to deal with his radical acceptance of the now.


      Also, stay hopeful. You are 8 months right? OK we know that this takes time. Everybody has told me. 18 months. 2 years. Even after 2 years you can still heal. People have healed at 4, years, 5 years. Some people maybe never heal but overall people tend to get better with time. Mostly.

      Stay positive. Accept what you can’t change. Work on what you can: diet, exercise, meditation, etc

      This has made me a much more humble person. More spiritual also.

    • Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 3:30 am Reply

      I do regret to have taken the 4 pills that chanced my life to the wrong side,but regret doesn’t help. I do regret that I trusted my doctor who,after having told me that she had just received a letter,advising (or ordering?) her to NOT combine Cipro with the Flecainde,I already used,but,after over half an hour of phoning around,prescriped the rotten Cipro anyway,reducing my Flecainide dose to 50%.And getting angry at me after I stopped the Cipro after 4 pills,because of the severe adverse reactions.

      But regretting doesn’t help,and although still damning the moment that I started the course,hoping it would work and not give the same problems as the first course of AB’s,with Metronidazole and Amoxicillin did,years earlier,I try to focus on the things that might improve my health and (partialy) repair the damage,done.And I try to enjoy the better days,gratefull for the improvements I have since the worst symptoms (heart palpitations and severe double vision) have almost disappeared.Only knowing that even a cup of tea,or stress,can bring tose symptoms back abates my optimism.

    • Andrea December 31, 2019 at 7:32 am Reply

      I know we shouldn’t think that way, but it’s something I was considering just a couple of days ago. I’ve noticed that, in the past 3 years, everyday, at least once, I thought about FQs, or my health status or anything related to my issue. It’s like something that you always keep inside you. Sometimes it’s less noticeable, sometimes it’s unberable, but it’s always with you. That thought never leaves. I often think how stupid I’ve been to trust that ignorant scumbag who poisoned me, without even thinking twice, about what he was doing. Even if he knew there was no infection. I often think how better and easier my life would be if that day I’d just threw the prescription in the trash can and just kept living my life. Not to mention how angrier and grumpier I’ve become. I sometimes think I should go to visit that doctor and make him feel the same pain I’m dealing with, but for what? Make thing even worse?

  22. Larry December 30, 2019 at 10:15 pm Reply

    does anyone here live in constant regret? Like you can’t think about anything else but being a floxie and all you think about is how you didn’t take those pills and you’re fine?

    Other than the full body nerve pain I struggle constantly with the mental fallout.

    • A.Coleman December 31, 2019 at 8:05 am Reply

      Larry, that is a line of thought that you just can’t pursue! There are lots of major turning points in our lives where there were two options presented and our life changed drastically based on our decision. You will never know what would have happened if you didn’t take the fluoroquinolones. So many other possibilities that it is endless.

      Your life today is that of a floxie. You have to focus on not giving up. My next post is going to be asking for help from the community in the face of some recent frustrations; but I still believe that one day – some day I will be more or less normal. Probably not 100% of the old me; but I truly expect 95% or greater healing some day.

      Having said that I was floxed over 4 years ago. I am to a stage now where I have some of the greatest roller coaster rides I have ever had as a floxie with some days essentially normal and others where I am down to 60% to 70% normal. I still think it is part of healing and keep hope alive.

      • A.Coleman December 31, 2019 at 8:32 am Reply

        Hey Everybody (replying to myself because there is no new thread link)

        I need a little pep talk today. As many of you know I have been having some normal days starting to get sprinkled in. Right before Christmas I went for 10 days of essentially normal!!!

        My main question – Has anyone ever successfully taken B vitamins for a long time only to then have them start causing problems due to over-methylation?? Hopefully someone can tell me if I am crazy for thinking it is the B vitamins; but that’s what I suspect.

        Here is why I ask; on Christmas day I started the worst relapse I have had in over two years. My recent problems are mostly focused around brain fog, tiredness and anxiety. I have big ups and downs these days from basically 100% to 60% in 24 hours.

        I think all my problems are tied to my MTHFR issues. I am a C677T heterozygote and think that probably 90% of my remaining issues are associated with this not FQ toxicity.

        Here is what is going on – for over 3 years I successfully took B vitamins (methylated forms for B12 and folate) for my MTHFR issues and neuropathy. Neuropathy was in control and usually didn’t bother me at all; or only a little. Then around October I started having really bad brain fog (it has been an issue for about a year; but was getting better until October) and horrible anxiety / panic attacks – this is a new symptom for me.

        These both seem to be linked to the B vitamins in my case. I stopped all B vitamins for a bit over a month and things got better until I started having bad neuropathy again. I tried restarting and triggered another round of brain fog / panic attacks. So, on December 6th I started non-methylated but bio available forms of B12 and folate. Adenocobalamin and Hydroxycobalimin blend for B12 and folinic acid (NOT FOLIC ACID) for Folate.

        I thought this was the answer; but then my relapse started and yesterday the brain fog and panic attacks returned. I stopped the B vitamins again; but know the neuropathy isn’t far off. I have started consulting over the phone with a naturopath who is an MTHFR specialist and has even had a few floxie patients.

        I know I just have to get my amounts and frequency of the B vitamins adjusted; and then maybe I can get on a solid pathway to healing BUT IT IS SO FRUSTRATING!

        • Michael December 31, 2019 at 2:06 pm

          Hi A.Coleman. I haven’t had my MTHFR status but I have been experimenting with methylated versus normal bioavailability forms of B complex. I did find my symptoms were worse when taking the ‘mega B complex’ solgar vitamins as opposed to individual p-5-p, metafolin and methyclobalamin so I prefer those now. Regarding brain fog I found the Mito Q10 we have in New Zealand very effective. I don’t get brain fog any more at 6 months. All I have is neuropathy. Have you tried that mito Q10 yet?

  23. Andrea S. December 31, 2019 at 8:35 am Reply

    Hello everyone. I wonder if someone might have a link to florinated RX drugs and over the counter meds? I found a short list but would love to have something that I can print out.
    I want to be as careful as possible not to ingest any flouride that I have control over. Wishing you all a very Happy New Year.

  24. Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 10:44 am Reply

    Hmmm,I gave the same answer,but somehow it got lost/not placed.

    I just took a look at the site and it seems nothing changed since years.So;the info is old (+10 years)a,d the site seems to be dead.Does anyone know a more up to date website for this kind of information?

  25. Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 10:50 am Reply

    And now I got a mail with the message,I just wrote.Something seems to be wrong on the website.

    Here’s a site with a usefull list of fluoride in foods and beverages:


    • Andrea S. December 31, 2019 at 11:06 am Reply

      Henk that’s an awesome list for the foods thank you! I’ve printed it out and will hang it in my kitchen.

      • Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 11:25 am Reply

        Don’t mention it,Andrea. I’ll print it,for my kitchen wall,as well :-))

        In some parts of the world,it’s 2020,already;in 5 3/4 hours,here,in the Netherlands the new year will take a start.I wish everybody a good new year,and hope that 2020 will be the year that people start to break down the evil,corrupted medical system,and build a new one,in place. A system,under control of us,the people,with trustable science,honest prices,and,above all,a free choice for natural remedies and medicines (insurance-covered!).We must stop,just asking for this change;we must demend it!

        I wish everybody a good and happy 2020,with the best health a Floxie can reasonably hope for! (And better,if possible :-))

  26. Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 11:02 am Reply

    And a list of how to avoid Fluorid in food and drinks:


    Didn’t find a list on supplements,yet.On medicines: most medicine info pages on Wiki show the build-up of the medicine,so,it’s easy to see if there’s Fluoride in it.Here,for example,Cipro.Notice the “F” in the diagram:


  27. Andrea S. December 31, 2019 at 11:04 am Reply

    Thanks L and Henk. Henk I got to thinking about the list after reading how you had taken both Flecainde and Cipro together. I have always been a researcher and a very bad patient in fact as I was always concerned when a doctor gave me and RX. I just had a hard time trusting anything but we do trust these Doctors to care for us and know what the heck they are doing when in fact what they are giving us is hurting us even more!!! It really makes me sad and angry for everyone out there affected by these crap drugs – the Fluoroquinolone’s of course but all the other garbage drugs containing flouride. I am sure all the folks who were suffering from depression etc. who got on prozac never imagined they could be taking a drug that would make their depression look like a walk in the park compared to the side effects of it if potentially mixed with other flouride containing drugs. Thinking of you all and hoping that 2020 brings you all peace and comfort.

  28. Henk Noordhuizen December 31, 2019 at 11:40 am Reply

    And let’s not forget our great host,Lisa Bloomquist!

    Yet,another year has passed,and thanks to her FloxieHope website/blog we have,again, been able to discuss our Floxie problems,and exchange lots of usefull (and less usefull ;-)) info,for another year. Don’t know how to thank you enough for all of this,Lisa,we all ow you so much!!!

    I hope that you,and your great FloxieHope website,are here for us,for many years to come,and I wish you all the luck in the world and a great health.Thank you,thank you !!!

    • Don M December 31, 2019 at 7:13 pm Reply

      I must second Henk’s thanks to Lisa. A Happy New Year to everyone too.

  29. Henk Noordhuizen January 1, 2020 at 3:18 am Reply

    Today,on the Mercola website,a great article on collagen supplements,and tells us why even organic isn’t such a great source:


    Well,nothing wrong with making a tasty chicken soup,or cooking a deliscious broth from (bio-raised) cow bones.A nice fish soup,using a good recepy, is a real treat,as well (for fish lovers ;-))

    Time,spent in the kitchen,cooking a tasty and healthy meal is time spent well!

    Happy new year!

  30. Don M January 1, 2020 at 1:15 pm Reply

    Is Fluoroquinolone Brain Fog Actually Chemobrain? http://www.myquinstory.info/is-fluoroquinolone-brain-fog-actually-chemobrain/?fbclid=IwAR3fbVAV8D47WXcWn369TTxQleL23mPkLqnGa64veimBmFymK_P-WH4BSJQ

    Just some more reading that may interest a floxie.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 1, 2020 at 1:41 pm Reply

      Thank you,Don.FQ’s are,in fact,100% chemo’s and Cipro is,at the moment,re-positioned as a chemo,to profit from the ever growing cancer market.

  31. onto January 1, 2020 at 1:37 pm Reply

    this pack helped me a lot on my way to recovery, please check it> https://bit.ly/2ZJjNIk

    happy new year my floxfam

    • Don M January 1, 2020 at 6:04 pm Reply

      Very good information. Rather lengthy but very informative.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 1:47 am Reply

        It’s the “famous” Kerry Knox book,”shared” on a website with a strange internet adress. Doesn’t look excactly legal.Darknet-like,

        • Don M January 2, 2020 at 7:32 am

          I was thinking that too. I paid the $$$$ for the ebook and when compared them both. They are very similar. In fact almost identical.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 8:19 am

          Yes,and what to think of this:

          “When you consider the amount of money we’ve invested in medical studies, testing what we learned, and the time we spent to put all of this together, it would be easy to value this information at $2500-$3000… or even more…

          That’s what the first people to work with me actually paid in expensive lab tests and multiple consultations…

          Initially, with the time, effort and money I put into this protocol, I considered offering the protocol for $499.

          Is feeling better worth $499?money-bag

          Can you really put a price on your health and feeling good?

          For most people, the answer to that is, YES, but I knew most people couldn’t afford that…

          My goal in creating The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution was to give everyone a step-by-step method to reversing Fluoroquinolone Toxicity… and to make it affordable for everyone.

          …A solution that anyone out there who was suffering could follow and see fast results…

          I knew that most people suffering had already spent thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars for what didn’t work for them. A wealthy lawyer told me that he spent $25,000 on solutions that didn’t work before finding my protocol, and it was the only thing that ended up working for him.

          So, I knew that many people couldn’t even afford to spend several hundred dollars on this and I didn’t want to price anyone out of being able to have the solution to their suffering in their hands.

          That’s why I’ve decided to give you the INSTANT DOWNLOAD for a price that anyone can afford…

          Today, you can get access to The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution for just $39.99… and that’s with a 100% money-back guarantee! Try getting that from the next doctor you go to for help from Fluoroquinolones.”

          The books are,in fact,just sort of (thick) commercial flyers/leaflets for their (very) overpriced supplements and other books.You may even distribute the e-books,but only if fully intact,with all the links (to their products.If you use any of the info from the books without their permission,they will “prosecute you within the fullest extend of the law”.Remarkable;most of the info in the book is all over the web,available for free;that’s where they found it,as well.And the price of the book,€40 for a 150 page e-book??? Written by a nurse and a massage therapist?

        • L January 2, 2020 at 11:37 am

          The information may well indeed be all over the web “for free.” But researching, reading, “testing”, compiling, writing. That takes a lot of time. I personally cannot say if this would have helped me, but for the price I think it is more than reasonable. I am at over $60,000 invested in this little journey, and still counting. I don’t fault them for charging that comparatively meager amount for the information. It is no different from any other self-help book someone might pick up.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 1:10 pm

          I’m glad that NL still has a good health insurance system,and almost all my costs are paid. There is an own-risk;the first €380 is for myself to pay,from there on most of it is paid by insurance.Since I had to pay the full own risk,a few years ago,for two rides in the ambulance,to the ER,there was a change in the system,and no I can (and do) pay a bit extra,every month to have no own risk.Needles to say that,over one year,the extra costs are not that much lower than the own risk,itself :-((

          For me,those books aren’t offering enough to buy them,and I don’t like their selling tactics.either.

        • Andrea S. January 2, 2020 at 1:28 pm

          Henk how fortunate you are! It sounds like that is the place to live!

          This brings up an interesting question for the US folks here if I can ask. How is your medical insurance? Ours packs a 5k family deductible 3k per person until the 5 is hit. We are still paying off medical bills from 2 years ago. My husband said our insurance is typical but I don’t think so. It sounds very high. He said for those who don’t have to pay such a high deductible they pay for it through what is taken from their paycheck. We also have an HSA

        • L January 2, 2020 at 8:41 pm

          Insurance is mostly useless for me as are non-integrative allopaths. I have to pay out of pocket for me doctors and NDs and their treatments, because insurance doesn’t. But most straight non-integrative MDs have been USELESS for me. I an over $60,000 and counting…

        • Nicole January 2, 2020 at 10:38 pm

          I’m with L. I live in Canada with socialized medicine for what good that also does me. I also work with Naturopathic doctor and she is not covered our medical system. Hitting close to $50,000 at four year out with my NP, psychologist, and physical therapist plus a million and one supplements. But what other choices do we have. Western medicine only wants to poison us more and most doctors still don’t get it!

        • L January 3, 2020 at 12:26 am

          yeah, it sucks. First they destroy our bodies and minds, then drain our resources.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 9:03 am

          Formely we had a system where the people with a low income had a cheap insurance,while the high nincome people had a privat insurance,which costed a lot more.The idea was that people with a high income had to contribute more to the insurance system.

          Now we have a system where everybody pais the same,which made the system quite expensive for low incomes,but it is still a lot cheaper than in the USA.But every year costs rise,and that’s why they introduced the own risk,€ 385.and for many remidies you have to contribute in the costs as well.And on top of it,the insurance only covers €300 max for alternative care/medication.Which is rediculously low.Every focussed on keeping poor people from going to a doctor,in the first place (own risk €385),and keeping them away from alternative medicine.

          This might seem very cheap,compared to the US,but don’t forget that wages are way lower,here,in the EU.Well,they are for most people.

        • Barbara Arnold January 3, 2020 at 2:38 am

          Sorry Henk, I’m going to disagree with you here. The Kerri Knox book was for me, very useful when I first found out I was floxed. It was full of useful information that I did not know at the time. I hadn’t realised I had been ‘poisoned’ only that I was suffering the side effects of cipro. I was pretty green at the time. The price for me is very little and well worth it as there is a lot of good information, also once you buy it you can join her forum with other floxies and she will answer any questions you may have. When you start out with NO INFORMATION this is a lifesaver. It takes her time and expertise which would cost a lot more from an ND. She also has to make a living like everyone else, so I think the price of the book is more than fair. The only issue I have with the book is the misleading title. It is not a SOLUTION. If it was, we would all be cured. I did point this out to Lisa when she first advertised the book on her site, and she agreed with me. Kerri Knox has Hashimoto’s disease, so she has done a tremendous amount of research on vits and minerals and has a great deal of knowlege on them. Since I was floxed five years ago there has been a lot more information ‘out there’ but I still think if you are ‘newly’ floxed the book is a good comprehensive start to help you.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 3:50 am

          Hi Barbara,I was floxed over 3 years ago,and the hardest part for me (after the denying of my doctor,her even getting angry at me for reporting my adverse reactions) was to find out what was going on with me.Once I found out about “Floxies” and “being floxed),finding info was not hard at all.I soon found this website,with lots of usefull info,and where,and how to look for other usefull info and advices.We may disagree about the price but here,in the Netherlands,most people don’t have €40.000 or €60.000 to spend on health issues,and that makes a $40 150 pages e-book quite expensive,knowing that most,if not all info is there,for free,on the web.

        • L January 3, 2020 at 11:03 am

          I’ve spent over $60,000. Much of it worth it, but still thousands that was just trial and error. $40 is a mere drop in the bucket. And like Barbara said, all the author’s time put into research, writing, etc deserves compensation. When I think of all the MDs who raked in so much money and offered ZERO helpful information, and in fact, made things worse by not believing me….well, no comparison.

        • L January 3, 2020 at 10:59 am

          Exactly the point I was trying to make….only more eloquent 🙂

        • Barbara Arnold January 3, 2020 at 6:00 am

          Yes Henk, you can find a lot of info on the web, but some people don’t have the time or enough knowledge about the ‘right’ supps to take. Considering the amount of money people spend out of desperation from different web sites, social media etc, the book can save you a lot of money as it’s pretty accurate in it’s recommendations. Like I said you also get access ‘free’ to Kerri’s forum where she will answer your questions if she can. I was seven months floxed before I knew what happened to me and researching I found her book and got access to her site, it was there I started flooding myself with magnesium, the ‘right’ kind for me, as she explained about the different types of mag. I also found out about ozone autohemotherapy from a floxie on the site, which again ‘for me’ helped me the most. So although we may disagree about the price I don’t think it’s fair to put people off beforehand, as in my opinion it could help others who are desperate as I was back then.

        • Barbara Arnold January 3, 2020 at 6:04 am

          Henk, it’s not 40,000 euros it’s 40 euros. I’ve just realized your mistake. It is confusing to say 40,000 or 60,000 then talk about 40 dollars. Really don’t understand your point there.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 7:13 am

          Barbara,with the $40.000 and 60.000 I ment the amount of money,people,here on FH,said to have spent on remedies,hoping for recovery.

        • Barbara Arnold January 3, 2020 at 6:25 am

          Also, there is a lot more information in the book than just vitamins. IE Bone broth, for collegen, icing for pain etc. with explanations on all of the ‘extras’ you get.

        • Barbara Arnold January 3, 2020 at 7:53 am

          Oh right, but that makes the book really cheap then.????
          I’ve spent about 12,000 euros, a lot of that was a complete waste of money. I took a trip to the south of Spain, had a hair analysis, three IV’s, one of which was glutathione, the others vits and mins, hotel stay, petrol etc cost me around 2000 euros. I felt better for about three days then back to square one. He was a medical ND and in the very expensive vits and minerals he sold me, after a few days I actually started bleeding THROUGH my skin. I stopped them all as I didn’t know which one had caused it. It’s a lottery, hoping to get someone to help you. The biggest expense was ozone and Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but that was worth it for me as it was the only thing that made me feel better. Looking back if I knew what I know now I would take one thing at a time for a few weeks to see if it helped or not and to see if I could tolerate it. The ozone I would do in a blink of an eye, also the Hyperbaric, but I did not like the sensation in the hyperbaric chamber. I see a lot of fear and desperation on floxie sites, so this would be my advice to them, but also TIME. You say you are three years in, at three years I was in chronic pain, now after five years very little pain and at my age I consider myself doing well. I’m 95% back most of the time. We are all different, so no one size fits all. That’s why I think the book is useful because the information is correct and could save you a lot of money on the wrong stuff.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 8:50 am

          No,Barbara,I ment that that website is not a Kerri Knox website,and I guess(ed) that the person,sharing the book,there,was violating the copyrights untill I saw that,at the end of the book,it says you can legaly share it.

  32. Dave January 1, 2020 at 6:50 pm Reply

    In response to question about B vitamins…… so important but B6 used in higher doses will actually cause neuropathy. All this information is available on line. ( Henk)

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 2:31 am Reply

      Oké,now you will understand why I always try to convince people to get their vitamines and minerals from natural sources,and the same goes for medical remedies.If using a supplement,always do research on the best (safe and efficient) dose.

      The highest dose of vit B6 I found in a multy I used is 75 mg (Solgar V75) and up to 100 mg is considered safe:


      On the container is a warning that,after prolonged use of this supp,some very sensitive persons might experience,symptoms like tinglings,an some numbness in limbs.These effects are found only in people after supp use (Linus Pauling).

      You should never use a high dose supplement on a daily base because:

      * this can never be a substitude for the natural sources (real,healthy food).
      * many supplements have synthetic vitamines,and in-absorbable minerals as the main ingredients;not very effective,and,possibly,unhealthy and even risky in high doses.
      * there’s a risk of overdosing because most people do get part of their vitamines and minerals by food,drink,and sunlight,while most multi’s contain the full daily needs,or more.
      *the doses are “one fits all”

      By the way:why did you mention my name?

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 2:39 am Reply

      Here an article by the Linus Pauling institute,and others,on vit. B6:


  33. Henk Noordhuizen January 2, 2020 at 2:33 pm Reply


    Click to access 036.pdf

  34. Andrea S. January 2, 2020 at 3:10 pm Reply

    Hey everyone so I am about 3 weeks out from ingesting Cipro for a UTI. I believe I took somewhere around 6 pills over a several week span. So overall I did not notice anything but I had tremendous insomnia however I was terrified with worry so that did not help. I also got massive night sweats and random extreme hot flashes, I am starting menopause as well. When I learned of the toxicity I took tons of magnesium within an hour of the pill and to date I drink several glasses of Nature calm magnesium drink to the point of slightly loose stools.

    Sorry i’ll get to my question. So clearly magnesium is a must in the beginning as it blocks the deadly flouride but does it continue to work throughout ones toxic experience? I continue to take it every single day. I pray every moment that things don’t get worse. I have been reading all of your posts and all of the things that seem to help all of you. I have come to accept that it’s my fault I just assumed an antibiotic I had was safe. Whatever happens to me at this point is out of my control however i’ll try and do absolutely everything I can to potentially prevent a worse outcome. Blessings to you all.

    • Don M January 2, 2020 at 4:22 pm Reply

      Andrea S…………. I would suggest that you go back to the post by “onto” and down load the site that is referenced there. Read through it and you can pick up many helpful things. Save the Pdf to your computer for future reference.

    • Andrea January 2, 2020 at 6:08 pm Reply

      Hi Andrea S.
      In my experience magnesium it’s important, but not everytime. What I mean, is that sometimes supplementing with something can be tricky. In my experience, magnesium, expecially in large amounts can become detrimental, so always listen to your body. If you feel you’re overdoing, just reduce or even discontinue the supplemet your’re taking, in this case, magnesium. By the way, in my personal experience, the most important supplement is Vitamin D3, togheter with K2 for better absorption. But it’s also super important what I DON’T take, for example anything with caffeine, including tea and certain foods. For me, this is probably more important than taking any supplement.
      Anyway, you just wrote you were poisoned just 3 weeks ago. Can I ask you from what part of the world are you from? If you’re from Europe or the US, this is outreageus. Here in Europe, in 2018, fluorquinolones have been subject to a restriction, where it is reccomended to not prescribe these kind of drugs for any minor infection (that includes UTI), and in the US they received many “black box warnings” through the years. But apparently these dummies (doctors) don’t want to learn the lesson…why I’m not surprised at all?

      • Andrea S. January 2, 2020 at 7:18 pm Reply

        Andrea thank you for your input this is very helpful. So to answer your question yes I am in the us. And here is the worst part. I had a partial bottle from a few years ago that I fortunately never finished. When I got symptoms of another UTI coming on (as the bad patient I am) and not having the time to visit the doctor, I opted to treat myself or catch it early. So I took it over the course of many weeks without a particular schedule half a pill here and there. I think it equaled out to be nearly 6 500mg tablets. On my last pill I decided to check if there were any drug interactions and about had a heart attack when I found out the damage they cause. It did not dawn on me to investigate an antibiotic. I assumed they all come with some risks but not like this. Of course I tossed them asap, loaded up on magnesium, calcium everything short of making myself vomit it up. If it were not an hour in I would have tried to throw it up but it was too late. So I ended up doing this to myself in very poor judgement without the knowledge of the damage it could do. The original rx was a few years old sitting in a cabinet. I am never good with taking meds from doctors and I am always leary of them. Thus I never fully finish them which is very bad I know. After I found all this out I had a severe panic attack and felt like I signed my own death certificate. The stress this has caused me has aged me a few years in just a few weeks. I am a relatively smart person who researches everything I am careful but this has made me feel utterly stupid and truly ashamed of myself. My husband was freaked out as well and angry at me. We spent a weekend cleaning out the medicine cabinet for any rx meds and all the motrin and NSADS were disposed of. All I have left is a crap load of Magnesium, vitamin C, D3, probiotics and a few other vitamins. 😦

        I was just on another platform reading peoples stories. Many are there after recently taking perscriped Cipro. So this sh#t is still being given out in the USA And apparently if you have cataract surgery which I will have in a few years, Flouroquinone antibiotics are the gold standard eyedrops to date. Apparently the Opthamologists are unaware of the dangers? Or perhaps I feel those old enough for cataract aren’t worth the effort of keeping healthy?

        • lisalisa12years January 2, 2020 at 7:39 pm

          D-mannose helps to clean out the urinary tract and bladder. It works great! I take it as a supplement to help my kidney function. I use Navasana brand with Cranberry extract.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 4:09 am

          Andrea,once again;don’t panic! With the “regime” of taking one Cipro,every once in a while,and the lots of magnesium you’ve taken from right after you finished the Cipro,probably nothing bad will happen.

          About the magnesium;it’s important to use magnesium in combi with calcium,vit D3 and vit.K2;those four need each other to be optimally absorbed and effective.And too much magn can be bad,as well;best way is to,periodically,let your level be checked (RBC= intercellar test).Like most vit’s and minerals,too much can be as unhealth,even dangerous as having a defficiency.

          Best forms are Magnesium-Glyconate,and Magnesium L-Threonate.And magnesium oil,for interdermal use.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 3, 2020 at 3:31 am Reply

      Andrea,please,don’t worry;most of the people who use FQ’s don’t experience the severe adverse reactions you read about on FloxieHope and other Floxie websites.Using high doses from (almost) the start was a wise descision;it might have limitied the efficiency of the Cipro,and prevented it from doing damage.

      “I have come to accept that it’s my fault I just assumed an antibiotic I had was safe”

      No,it’s not your fault! First of all,it’s the fault of the doctors who prescribe these poisons,many of them unknowing of the risks because doctors are not at all interested in the adverse reactions.Knowing of the dangers would make their work more complicated,and less satisfying.But,most of all,it’s the fault of a totaly corrupted medical,and political system that are way to interested in money and power,and have hardly interested in the health and safety of us, the people.

      So,don’t blame yourself;we are falsely assured that synthetic/chemical antibiotics and other unnatural “medicines” are safe and effective,while they aren’t.They totaly brainwashed us unto believing their lies.Doctors are brainwashed as well,but they shouldn’t;they see the rampage,caused by their “medicines” everyday but most turn their head,rather than reacting in a way,real doctors shoul,or would do.

      I hope you’re among the lucky ones,and,as far as I understood from what you wrote,you might well be.

      • Andrea S. January 3, 2020 at 11:27 am Reply

        Henk thank you. I am praying for a positive path and outcome. I appreciate all of you here. Your stories have touched me deeply.

        • Michael January 3, 2020 at 2:01 pm

          I second that. I took about 4 weeks and felt nearly dead at first … but 6 months later I am much better. I feel I am nearing the end. Maybe another 6 months … but right now I can do pretty much everything I was doing before: work, gym, family etc just the neuropathy can be disturbing when it flares up. But it’s mostly quiescent.

  35. Don M January 4, 2020 at 9:19 am Reply

    Just a reminder about Fluoride. 9 Shocking Dangers of Fluoride Exposure. https://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/9-shocking-dangers-of-fluoride/
    By now most floxies already know the dangers of fluoride, but for those new to the nightmare of being floxed here is a little information.

  36. Dee January 5, 2020 at 9:11 am Reply

    Hi all!! Happy New Year!!! I have written about this before so running this by you again. I had two shots of Lidocaine to remove skin growths. The Lidocaine caused me to have contact dermatitis (of course a rare reaction!!). Thank you Cipro!! I have tried “everything” natural!! Different natural topicals….aloe Vera, milk of magnesia, coconut oil, plantain, calendula, calamine lotion, collidial silver spray. After 9 weeks nothing seems to be clearing up the red, itchy scabby spots here and there on my body (especially the site of shots) but several other areas too. I am worried, concerned, desperate, and beginning to wonder if this is some permanent issue although I can’t imagine this would stick around forever??!! I am about ready to try a low dose over the counter steroid cream on one spot to see if it helps clear it up?? I know steroids are a no no and believe me I don’t want to use them but this mess on my skin is making me miserable and it needs to be gone!! I don’t know if time will help this or not?? 9 weeks after lidocaine seems to be a long time to keep causing this reaction???? HELP!!

    • rae January 5, 2020 at 11:07 am Reply


  37. Dee January 5, 2020 at 11:18 am Reply

    Shingles????? You think it could be shingles?? Why?? It is just a few spots of red itchy scabby areas??? Possible I guess??

    • Dee January 5, 2020 at 11:22 am Reply

      I forgot that I had one spot biopsies. It was contact dermatitis.

    • rae January 5, 2020 at 12:05 pm Reply

      I was assuming it was also painful but it seems like it’s not that bad. My mistake!

  38. Dee January 5, 2020 at 1:47 pm Reply

    No worries! Not a mistake on your part! I know you are just trying to help. I’m just trying to find a solution to this damn skin nightmare!! I appreciate any feedback. It all helps!

    • Andrea S. January 5, 2020 at 4:56 pm Reply

      Dee when my kids were small and would get horrible rashes we used something called pink salve. We got it at the pharmacy no rx. A thick pink zinc lotion that cleared things up fast. I wonder if something like this could help?

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 6, 2020 at 3:17 am Reply

        Here,it is sold as zinc salve (and is white,not pink ;-)) It’s used for diaper rash (most commonly a kind of contact dermatitis.) I’ve used it,myself,for the rash on the skin of my head but switched to other,less “coulourfull” things,like the CS and the Tea Tree oil,I mentioned.It might,indeed,help.It’s probably more concentrated than the lotion. Probably the Pinxav salve,Andrea S. advised is as good,or maybe even better than the ones you usually find in drugstores,because of the ingredients the producer added (nice formula).


  39. Dee January 5, 2020 at 5:58 pm Reply

    Andrea, was it Calamine lotion or “zinc” lotion???? Calamine is pink but I don’t think it is zinc??? I have tried Calamine and it didn’t help??? I am sooooo frustrated with finding a solution! 😡

  40. Dee January 6, 2020 at 9:28 am Reply

    Thanks for the tip on the salve. I will look into it!! After trying so many natural alternatives to clear this contact dermatitis I am getting super discouraged it hasn’t left after 9 weeks. I just don’t understand why it hasn’t left. I read that after removing the allergin (lidocaine) most dermatitis will clear up on its own in 3-4 weeks. I just don’t understand why this won’t leave???? Hence I may have no choice but to try steroid creme. I’m sooooooo frustrated!!

    • rae January 6, 2020 at 11:01 am Reply

      Steroids do not heal. They suppress. You do have a choice.
      Anxiety can prolong a rash.

    • Andrea S. January 6, 2020 at 12:12 pm Reply

      I would definitely try the salve. It’s not just for diaper rash. My boys would get rashes on their cheeks (face) and I would gently rub some on the cheek and it healed it. It can stain and get messy so maybe you can rub it on and place an ace bandage over the area so it does not get on your clothing. Worth a shot.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 6, 2020 at 12:24 pm Reply

        I fully agree with you,Andrea;it’s well worth trying.I just read,in the Dr.Jay Cohen book,how important it is,for Floxies,to supplement zinc as well,and not only when having prostate issues.Zinc is very important for a lot of processes,and for skin health.

        • Anne January 7, 2020 at 2:00 am

          Dear Henk, I also live in the Netherlands! Would you be interested in commiserating over a cup of tea sometime? or chatting via WhatsApp Netherlands time? It would be so nice to talk to another person who has dealt with floxing in recent years. I’m doing well, though four years out from Cipro poisoning things are still sorting themselves out, especially with my feet (plantar fasciitis).

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 12:45 pm

          Hi Anne,thanks for the invitation.I don’t “do” any of the so called “social” networks,so,no FB,or WA,or Twitter,but we may,for a start,communicate by email,if you’d like to.My address: hnoordh@gmx.net

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 12:47 pm

          Hi Anne,thanks for the invitation.I don’t “do” any of the so called “social” networks,so,no FB,or WA,or Twitter,but we may,for a start,communicate by email,if you’d like to.My address: hnoordh at gmx point net

  41. Dee January 6, 2020 at 12:27 pm Reply

    Rae, I don’t want to use steroid creme but I’ve tried everything natural for 9 weeks with no results. I need to heal this rash. Have you used the steroid creme with no results?? My Derma says that is what they normally use for contact dermatitis to heal it? I was just avoiding using any steroids because of being floxed but my rash is not going away?? I feel pretty desperate! The itching is putting me through the roof besides red, itchy, scabby spots here and there! There has to be a solution to this!!???

    • Rae January 6, 2020 at 1:10 pm Reply

      I’ve had an itching, burning, painful case of shingles for several months now that’s overwhelming, so I need to bow out. Good luck whatever you do.

  42. Dee January 6, 2020 at 1:42 pm Reply

    Rae, so sorry to hear of your shingles. I know that can be a bad nightmare. I wish you well in healing and getting rid of that too. Let’s try to hang in there! Slow but sure!

    • Barbara Arnold January 8, 2020 at 3:31 am Reply

      Dee, I don’t know if this will help but liquid savlon, an antiseptic may help. You can get it in a spray and it stops ‘bacteria’ from developing.

      • Dee January 8, 2020 at 9:26 am Reply

        Jonneg, I’ve tried milk of magnesia and it didn’t really budge it? I may try again!
        Henk, would you make the baking soda into a paste and put it on the sores??
        Don, I pulled up the list and there were a few good suggestions including the baking soda paste.
        Barbara, thanks for tip on Savlon. I never heard of it but will look into it!!

        There are new non steroid cremes out…Protopic and Elidel. Anyone tried them? My Derma prescribed a 0.5 % steroid creme to try. Of course I’m scared to and if I do I would patch test for 2-3 days. I’ve tried so much with no luck. I’m getting desperate! After 9 weeks I don’t even know if time is helping!!?? Getting pretty down about all this!

  43. Don M January 8, 2020 at 12:18 am Reply

    Would any of these home remedies help with the open sores and itching problems? https://www.davidwolfe.com/hives-treatment/

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 1:32 am Reply

      I think the Baking Soda is well worth trying.Some people even use it as bath salt (me too,sometimes).It is very cheap and you can find it in almost every supermarket,and Toko.The one I use is Arm & Hammer,and costs about é 1,50 for a 1 LB/454 gram package.Also great for cleaning,and I even use it for stomach acid relief,sometimes.And,of course,for baking things like my sugarfree oat/banana muffins :-))

  44. Andrea January 8, 2020 at 6:42 am Reply

    Hey guys. Today I went to see a gastroenterologist. I eplained to him my bowel issues ( it all started after I took a probiotic containing saccaromyces boulardii, which gave me constipation,bloating, and from time to time dhiarreha) so it basically gave me IBS. He said that there’re not many things he can do, surprise surprise, and he proposed me 3 alternatives : 1 colonscopy with relative biospy 2 I could try to take the antibiotic Rifaximin (Xifaxan ) 3 I could try to take, but only after the colonscopy, the antiflammatory Mesalazine.
    Any comment from you guys? Thanks

    • Don M January 8, 2020 at 9:07 am Reply

      Sounds like a typical MD doctor. Only knows to give another medical procedure or prescription medication. Am I biased? Damned right!!!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 10:39 am Reply

      Three bad advices for the price of one?

    • L January 8, 2020 at 11:16 am Reply

      I wish it was possible to find integrative doctors in all fields. If you go to a straight allopath, they can only direct you as they have been trained, which is to cut or give chemicals. My sense is that it was not the SB that caused your issues except for possibly the constipation. SB is in fact used to TREAT diarrhea (is it just me or does everyone have to look up how to spell that word every. damn. time.) I would find a good naturopath or integrative MD and go a natural route. https://medicinalherbals.net/saccharomyces-boulardii/

      • Andrea January 8, 2020 at 4:18 pm Reply

        L Thanks for the comment. That’s what I think about my issue : never had problems with my guts in 2 years of being floxed. Took the SB and right after, maybe 2-3 days of using it, terrible constipation and painful bloating (it makes sense, SB has powerful antidiarrheal properties) and since I didn’t have any diarrhea…here I am. Now I can digest very few things. The healthiest I eat (veggies,fruits,legumes,whole grains) the more I become constipated. When I eat not that healhty (refined carbs,sugar,junk food in general) I’m very less constipated but with occasional diarrhea.
        Anyway, I think you wouldn’t even consdier taking one of those medicines right?

        • L January 8, 2020 at 6:19 pm

          I try to avoid all RXs as much as I can. I have been dealing with an issue for over two years now and as unbearable as it is (I go between feeling like I am choking or feeling like I am suffocating from too much congestion) I have so far refused to take the recommended steroid nasal sprays. I am so suspicious of all these pharmaceutical now (although I am on something for hypothyroid and I use a nonsteroidal inhaler.) Anyhow, something you might want to try is adding psyllium husk capsules to one or two meals a day. I used the Yerba Santa caps (or you can get the powder and mix it…but I prefer the capsules.)

        • Andrea January 9, 2020 at 7:36 am

          THanks a lot L. But psyllium is defenetly not for me right now. I’ve tried it in the past and it mede me only more constipated. Apparently, everyhting that bulks up in my intestines is detrimental for me…

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 8:39 am

          Andrea,Psyllium husk ONLY constipates when you don’t drink enough (water). This,because it absorbs a lot of water,and thereby grows in volume,making your stools SOFTER.When not drinking enough,the Psyllium absorbs the water from your food,thus making your stools harder,instead of softer.And I am sure,the powder works a lot better than the capsules,because,to work eficiently,you need to use at least 1 – 1 1/2 tablespoon of Psyllium husk powder,MIXED with a full glass (200-250 cl) of water.Stir well,and drink immediatly (within 1/2 hour after your meal.

          I use it every day,after my main meal,for over 2 1/2 years,now,and it works great,day after day.Before that,I used Macrogol (a synthetic fiber,prescribed after I had a double bleeding in my intestines,caused by Flecainide Acetaat),but it almost ruined my social life,and the smell of the constant farting was unbearable for myself,as well.My doctor got angry (again):”Playing doctor,yourself,again?” By then,my guts had calmed down;which was a pity.If not,I could have let her smell the reason why I swithed to the 100% natural Psyllium ;-))

  45. joanneg January 8, 2020 at 8:51 am Reply

    I’ve had rashes that looked like shingles since being floxed and the only thing that helped me was Milk of Magnesia.

  46. Dee January 8, 2020 at 9:06 am Reply

    Jonneg, I’ve tried milk of magnesia and it didn’t really budge it? I may try again!
    Don, would you make the baking soda into a paste and put it on the sores??

    • Don M January 8, 2020 at 9:11 am Reply

      That appears to be the best way to try it. A long shot but maybe you should consider the idea of drinking a little baking soda every day. According to all the literature it won’t hurt.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 10:45 am Reply

        Don,I don’t think that is a good idea.The Baking Soda wilt alter the stomach Ph,making it less acidic.This will have a bad influence on the stomach function,and limit food absorption.And it will open the gate for pathogens (the stomach acid also funnctions as a defence against system).

        The pasta,made from Baking Soda,for topical use,is a good idea,and very safe.

        • Don M January 8, 2020 at 1:14 pm

          https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Baking+soda+to+alkaize+the+body&t=crhs&ia=web Yes overdoing it with baking soda is not good but in some cases it appears to help maintain the correct Ph in the body.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 1:28 pm

          You’re right,Don,it is used to make an acidic body more alkaline,or,in fact,more neutral,but it’s not the best,nor the safest way,and overdoing it is outright dangerous.Never do this without monitoring the Ph (most of the tome done by testing the urine,but that is,in fact not a failsafe way.

          Better is,to avoid food and drinks that make the body more acidic,and eat and drink more alkalising things.In short:eat much vegetables,and limit proteins fats/oils and sugars (the base;for more info,search the web for an alkalizing diet).

  47. Dee January 8, 2020 at 9:35 am Reply

    Andrea, have you looked into mastic Gum?? Had a friend who it really helped acid reflux and I guess it does wonders to kill certain kinds of bacteria in stomach?? Don’t know much about it but maybe research it? I think it is a natural treatment for H Pylori but may have other benefits too?? Check it out when you get time!!
    Have you tried Colostrum??? Suppose to be good for stomach and immune system!! Just ideas!!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 10:59 am Reply

      I (sometimes) use Mastic gum,and it seems to help.Lesser acid problems after using it for a few days,but,as with other remedies; I forget to continue as soon as it starts to work and the symptoms are (almost) gone.My mistake,of course.

      I found it in a webshop,specialized in Greec foods and other stuff.I bought 2 packages,50 grams each,for €17,95 each.These contain little chuncks;you chew it,as a kind of old-fashoned chewing gum;the taste is not at all bad.They also sell other forms;powder,etc. Bought the chuncks because these are,for sure,100% pure resin.

      I don’t know if they sell outside NL and Belgium,but you could send them a mail and ask.Sorry,the website is in dutch language,only but you can hit the contact button and ask in english :


    • Henk Noordhuizen January 8, 2020 at 11:03 am Reply
  48. Andrea S. January 8, 2020 at 4:30 pm Reply

    Kind of a heavy topic so pass if you don’ want to read.

    I wanted to share something with you all as really I have nowhere else to share it.. My sister died in 2012. I’ll go into more detail but one thing that I remember is she had a ton of crazy symptoms. We would talk often and compare some strange health issues we both had. I up until recently I had not really been on any cipro type drugs that I know of.

    Long and short of it, she had all kinds of crazy symptoms. Ringing of the ears, loss of balance, brain fog, forgetfulness, depression, anxiety, dry eyes and poor vision. She mentioned to me about a year before she died she might have MS. Also she had some strange blood work showing up. Her symptoms were also psychological. She was very depressed and had too many things to list. I got to thinking about her and went through some of my old emails today. She had mentioned that she had a rare strain of psudonomas in her sinuses and that she was given a 10 day course of Levofloxacin November of 2012. In another email she mentioned she did two rounds of it. She was gone by December. She had battled the psudonomas for several years so I am confident she was on cipro or another Flouroquinoline antibiotic before as it’s one that is mainly used for this type of infection.

    My sister started to get paranoid and was out of sorts. She ended her life and I always struggled with guilt over it. Finding that email shocked me. I am certain all of her physical and part of her mental symptoms were the result of Levofloxacin and other antiboitics given in the past. I think that this antibiotic, a combination of unexplained health issues, a tendency for depression, divorce and lack of support did her in. In fact I am sure of it now.

    I only wish what I knew now I knew then. I would have told there is hope and it is possible to recover. At least she would have had an answer to her myriad of symptoms. She went from doctor to doctor trying to find answers. A big f#ck you to the drug companies!!!! Anyhow thanks for allowing me to share. When I stumbled upon that email I was shocked. 😦 So what I would tell my sister if she was alive – I found the answer to your problems. It’s real and there is hope for you to potentially heal. Please hold on and don’t give up!

    I strongly feel if a survey was taken of all of those with fibro, CFS, MS, and other diseases, all of them would recall at least one round of this stuff.

    • Don M January 8, 2020 at 6:03 pm Reply

      Andrea S. ……..Thank you for this story. Many of us (who now are pretty sure of the cause) drift from day to day dealing with the rolling list of symptoms. I have an MD primary care doctor who is aware of the problem but admits that there is no MD doctor prescribed treatment to fix the problem. Most doctors seem to be worthless when it comes to helping us. We seem to be on our own when it comes to finding what will help us.

      I go to a senior center and at that senior center I had a friend who was active every day and then he just didn’t show up. One of the other people from the center found him in bed, where he had been for 3 days. He was rushed to the ER and stabilized with a short stay in the hospital. When he got out he was unable to care for himself so his family took him to live with them and within 2 months he was dead. He kept telling me about the sinus problems he was having. He never discussed the drugs the doctor was giving him but in retrospect I think he was given a Fluoroquinolone. I think that he was killed by a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic given to him by a clueless doctor. Just my opinion.

      • Andrea S. January 8, 2020 at 7:29 pm Reply

        Don I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. One definitely has to wonder about the potential of these drugs being given to the people we have lost unfortunately we will never know.

    • L January 8, 2020 at 6:30 pm Reply

      So sorry to hear about your sister. From what you said, it certainly does sound like fluoroquinolones. Dr Charles Bennett, a medical researcher at the U of So Carolina (who has been instrumental in getting warnings on these damn things) estimated (and this was several years ago so much higher now…and even higher because those in other countries may not report AT ALL) but he estimated 300,000 had DIED from fluoroquinolones (and millions and millions more injured)…and many of those deaths have been suicides. I honestly don’t know how I am still here, with the head to toe nightmares I experienced during the first year or more. Just beyond description, beyond our realm of experience…things that if you saw them in a movie you’d walk, thinking it was not believable. Nightmarish does not begin to define it. I prayed for death for the whole first year when I couldn’t think normally, couldn’t breathe normally, couldn’t see normally, couldn’t smell anything without it HURTING, could barely move without assistance, and feared that this was going to be my life.

      • Andrea S. January 8, 2020 at 6:46 pm Reply

        L I am so sorry for what you have had to deal with. Please help remind me know I’ve read other of your posts but how are you doing now improvement from initial poisoning?

        In hindsight I can only imagine the horror that my sister went through when dealing with all of this. Here she was taking an antibiotic to try and fix the problem and it’s screwed her up even more. And I dare say it’s my opinion and killed her! My heart goes out to anybody suffering especially from this drug.

        • L January 8, 2020 at 7:47 pm

          Well the most hideous…gasping for each breath, unable to see more than foot because of nerve damage and thousands of floaters, and the hyperosmia (where everything asphyixiated me…even things you don’t normally think of as having scents) have all gone or at least subsided. I still get horrible phantom scents that are grotesque and smell like chemicals. Nothing to be done. Nerve damage. And I am still sensitive to smells but much much less.

          The weird eye things, like seeing something different out of each eye, are gone. I still have floaters, but just a fraction of what I had before. I was diagnosed with macular degeneration within a month of being floxed. The doctor said it was the Cipro, but I know it was, because I had an exam just a couple months before the cipro without that diagnosis. Still have light sensitivity and fluorescent lighting is still annoying. And it’s weird, but when I am out in sunlight, vision through my left eye is normal, but through my right, it’s like a shade is pulled down in front of it. I have also had some flashes of light but none as terrifying as the one I had months after being floxed, where it was right in the central field of vision and last over 10 minutes.

          MY toes are all still numb in different areas, and sometimes the balls of my feet. I still have a it of wonkiness in the fingers that had spasmed wildly out of control. I had prolozone in both knees…ended up with torn menisucus in both, and so far so good. I will not do surgery. I’ll just got more prolozone and/or prp.

          I still have gut issues on and off but it’s mostly ok. I gained back the 36 pounds I lost. All the terrifying brain stuff and “I-have-a-gun-at-my-head” level of anxiety all gone. Completely. Still have tinnitus that at times is so loud I want to scream. Still have a bit of fluid around my heart, but it too went down.

          The worst pain I had had was mid back. I have had cracked ribs and that was a day in park compared to this pain. IT was like it was buried deep in the bone. That was one of the first things to go after I started IV therapy. The other horrible pain I had is what I believe was cipro-induced interstitial cystitis. Felt at times like I had crushed shards of glass inside. All gone now.

          Had a bunch of other stuff, like hair coming out in chunks, body-wide hives and some other stuff that is all gone. I actually had a few months, where, in spite of the tinnitus, peripheral neuropathy, vision stuff and phantom scents, I felt like just about back to normal. Just three months and then this awful congestion thing, with overproduction of mucus in nose throat and lungs start happening, and ended my “lucky streak.” I have seen more than a dozen doctors now, including FIVE ENTs. I have had two sinus procedures, over a year of allergy treatments, lots of supplement,s Traditional Chinese medicine, etc,and NO ANSWERS. It is exhausting, because most nights I am up to 2 or 3 struggling to breathe, unable to clear my lungs. A few times I felt like I would actually suffocate to death. I spend hours doing research, and I feel like I have checked off everything it could be. I am just afraid this is another cipro “gift.” Before this happened, around 2 years and 3 months ago, I would have said I was around 95% back….

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 10, 2020 at 3:14 am Reply

      Andrea,that is a very depressing story,and I think that I know how you feel.I lost my favorite brother in 2005,one year after an internist/oncolog in a cancer clinic “discovered” that he had leukemia.I had suspects about this diagnose,right away! Why? Because he told me that he went from doctor to doctor,from internist to internist without finding one that could tell him what was wrong with his health.A search that lasted 1 1/2 YEARS! But then he found an internist who had his apprenticeship in in that cancer hospital and sent him there because he “though he knew what was the problem”.And there,another “specialist” diagnosed leukemia.

      What were his persistant symptoms? Well,you might guess:always tired,illnesses like common cold and influenza took longer to heal,as did even small wounds.Etc.VERY Floxie-like! (Although these FQ toxification symptoms were not very welknown,at the time)

      The specialist ORDERED him to go home,grab his things (night cloth,and personal care stuff) and COME RIGHT BACK for the chemo! It was friday,but only after a hefty discussion he was allowed to spend this (last?) weekend home,with his child and girlfriend.Why the hurry,while,during 1 1/2 years,the symptoms were persistant but stable?It took a while for me,to understand;they didn’t want to give him time to re-think what was happening,the absurd hurry to start the “remedy”,the possibillty of considering an alternative treatment,or a second opinion,or time enough to start,having doubt about the diagnose.

      Only since the last few months I started to,slowly,understand that my initial doubts were right! I’m quite sure he was probably floxed,and didn’t have leukemia at all! I’m pretty sure the specialist and his team had the same doubts;that was the reason they wanted to start the treatment without any delay.Their argument was that his (Acute Myaloide) is a fast developping illness,and every day counts.Oh,and about (better;maximum) 15% of the patients heal,after the chemo and radiation.He didn’t;after a year he was worse than ever before.

      After a transplantation of my T-cells and white blood cells (experimental),which would take place 4 times,they stopped after 2 times because they didn’t see enough results.Later,they admitted that this was a mis-calculation because,after they fully stopped the treatment it took him over two month to die,which showed,as they later told his girlfriend,that the experimental treatment did work,after all.They only made the mistake to stop the treatment.SORRY;JUST A LITTLE MISTAKE.WE ARE ONLY HUMANS,YOU KNOW! Well,are you?

      He was a Drs. in sociology,but worked as a teacher on a high school.Really enjoyed the work.Had a nice girlfriend,and a cute,and smart sun who was 8 years old when he died.Probably caught an infection (not hard to do,when working amoung hundreds of young teenagers) and probably his doc gave him an FQ (to prevent secondary infections?).I should ask his girlfriend.Or maybe not? Waking up sleeping dogs? Putting salt in her wounds,and of his son?.

      The damn “specialist” should not only have examined his blood cells,but his other cells,as well.he would probably be amazed by the fact that those,too,were damaged,Mitochondria,DNA and mDNA.The very long time (1 1/2 year +) my brother had these symptoms,without getting worse,should have made him suspicious,and maybe it did,but there’s no financiel gain in “I don’t know what’s going on here”. The former docs were more honest,and that probably gave hime the 1 1/2 years of life that he,although not fully healthy,at least had a life!

      It wouldn’t change anything for the better;and I would probably even feel worse,knowing for sure that the Farmafia effectlively killed my brother.First the FQ.and then the chemo,radiation,transplantation of my stem cells (and t-cells),and ,a year later another transplantation,now with my white- and T-cells.And,in the final,the morfine and hefty “downers” to keep him into a deep sleep while he died.Money is the secret word!

      He phoned me,the day before my 50th birthday,to tell me the bad news of the leukemia diagnose.He died 10 days before he,himself,would have his 50th birthday.My mother dies at 57 years old;swallowing so much “medicines”,at the time that there was hardly enough place left in her stomach for some food.My youngest brother died a few years after my “leukemia” brother,shortly after he started “medication” for his heart (his only problem probably was the extreme amount of nicotin,coffee and,in the evening,alcohol he used).When my mother died I was 22 years old,having 3 younger brothers.There’s only one left,and he’s on hefty medication for many years,now,after some medical failures,starting with a misdiagnosed cut tendon (little accident).

      Sorry for this overly long story,but I needed to vent it (in my system,way too long :-(( Had to tell you all how the Farmafia “medication” succeeded to ruin my family.And many others!

      • Don M January 10, 2020 at 8:56 am Reply

        Henk………. I have not had as many people close to me that have experienced all the negative things you mention here. But I can look back at several different situations and see a similarity. My mother’s issue was blood pressure. I took her to the Cardiologist and watched him prescribe as many as 4 different blood pressure medications at one time. I watched her have the myriad of side effects but just did not know any better. I was trusting the Cardiologist’s knowledge. I was naive and wrong. Her real underlying problem was hyper nerves that would cause her blood pressure to shoot to 200. I asked them to treat that but was ignored. Over medicated at home her BP would tank and scare her into a nervous fit which shot it up again. I felt I was helpless to intervene.
        In a previous post I discussed (what I now consider a floxing) about my friend from the Senior Center who had sinus problems and then all of the sudden was unable to care for himself and dead within 3 months. I never asked him what medication the doctor was giving him. Would it have made a difference had I asked him? No, because I still did not know how dangerous Fluoroquinolone are.

        I want to bring up something that happened to me and now looking back I understand what was going on. I came down with a UTI but thought it was the flu. I went to the ER and it was immediately determined that I had a UTI and not the flu so was immediately given and IV with 500 mg of Leviquin. Was also given a chest X-ray and was diagnosed with “possible ” pneumonia so I was kept in the hospital “for observation”. Later my PC doctor laughed and said it was most likely just a bit of bronchial mucus from a minor case of COPD that most older people have.
        Every 3 hours blood was drawn followed by a pill and mixed drink. At a 3 AM blood draw I finally said “what the hell is going on”. I evidently instantly became a “problem case” because 4 people came to my room. It was finally explained to me that I was low on magnesium and the pills and drink were to raise it. The frequent blood draws (billed @ $400 each time) were to be sure they did not over medicate me with magnesium. Now looking back……….. My appraisal of the issue is that the doctor knew full well that giving Leviquin to an 83 year old person was dangerous. The ruse about pneumonia was exactly that … a ruse to admit me to the hospital (for observation). A ruse to use so that they could watch me for serious symptoms and give me magnesium. After 30 hours of this I said I am leaving. With or with out discharge authorization.
        (The hospital billed $21,000 for my 30 hour stay. Medicare HMO insurance paid them $2,300.)
        I came home and (blindly, because I did not know any better) spent the next 10 days taking (from my stores) a combination of Cipro and Amoxicillin. I did cure the infection. For 30 years I have been authorized by doctors to keep Cipro on hand and use it at the first sign if a UTI. No one informed me of the problems it could cause. I wondered why over the years I was developing some strange symptoms.
        BUT, now I know. I learned about Fluoroquinolones from reading the internet NOT FROM DOCTORS..

        A bit long but showing what seems to be typical in the medical profession of being less than truthful and straight forward.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 10, 2020 at 9:17 am

          Hi Don,the story of your mother and her high blood pressure is a typical one;cardiologists should know that the first,and best medication for high blood pressure (and in fact most heart diseases) should be: magnesium! Things HAVE changed;today,people,people,broought in with a heart infarct get a magnesium IV,for limiting the damage AFTER the infarct.Should have been given BEFORE,TO PREVENT the infarct,of course.But first,THE MONEY!

          And later on they managed to sell you the most expensive magnesium supps I ever heard of?Wauw;thanks for this story!I have to excuse;a friend is coming on a visit from Belgium,and I promissed to prepare a meal before he drives home.

        • Andrea S. January 10, 2020 at 3:42 pm

          Don my Dad had frequent UTI infections which I think was due to the fact his bladder never fully emptied. He was given LOTS of cipro and he was in his 80’s. He passed years ago but how can doctors hand this out to the older age group when it specifically states that it’s harder on them? I think these doctors should be put out of practice. I felt my Dad’s MD was useless! When he fell and cut is leg the doctor barely bandaged it and said have your daughter redress the wound every few days. My Dad was diabetic also! I took my Dad in for a toenail trim and the podiatrist immediately ordered a home nurse to come for wound care for 6 weeks which required peeling off the scab and medicating the wound several times. That foot doctor probably bought my Dad a few more years of life by doing that.

      • Andrea S. January 10, 2020 at 3:45 pm Reply

        Henk I replied to you but for some reason it’s not showing up?

        Henk I am so very sorry for the losses of your Brothers and your Mom. That is such a tragic story. I wish I had words of comfort but I know there is not much I could say other then I understand the feelings of loss of family. I had just one sibling and she is gone, both my parents gone. And yes big pharma is a scary thing. I once saw the worlds oldest man (at the time) doing an interview on one of the late night shows. I believe he was 115. They asked what is your secret? He said he drank a shot glass of Worcester sauce every night before bed. I don’t think he was on any meds. Speaks volumes.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 2:48 am

          Andrea,I thought for years that the weapon industry is the most evil in the world,but time,experiences and years of web research has learned me that the farmaceutical industry owns that “title”,

          The weapon industry is honest in it’s goal:making weapons,made for killing.The Farmafia (a name that suites them better) pretends to make us more healthy,but by now it’s becoming clearer and clearer that it’s the oppposite,they’re doing.When what I,and a growing number of people,including those in the medical world,start to suspect is true,than this evil industry is commiting genocide on a scale that looks every war,untill now,look like a children’s party,and Hitler,Stalin and the Red Khmer like small scale imitators.The number of people who die of cancer,and of heart diseases,should probably,for the most part,be added to the number of people who die by medicines,making them the top killers.

          To be honest,the chemical industry should be added,as a partner in crime with the Farmafia;the products of both act more or less the same,in human bodies.

  49. L January 8, 2020 at 7:48 pm Reply

    I mean to say the doctor said it WASN’T the cipro. I think he’s wrong

    • Don M January 9, 2020 at 8:14 am Reply

      I claim that most doctors are “willingly complicit”. They are because they know where their bread and butter comes from. It has become so ingrained that they don’t seem to know any different. The whole (MD) medical thing has turned from “do no harm” to “where can I make the most money”. Really shameful that the profession that so many of us trusted and relied on to do the right thing for us has gone “money hungry”. The really aggravating thing is that they do all this with an arrogance and straight face. And in most cases we have no recourse. They get away with their insidious game.

      I need to qualify my previous rant with the comment that this does not include all doctors. There are “some” DO’s, Chiropractors. and ND doctors and even a few MD’s that are a bit different than the average MD. But, they are hard to find.

      I just want to mention a ridiculous thing. My insurance company (Medicare HMO) scolded and admonished me because I went and interviewed a doctor before I notified them if I did or didn’t want him/her as my primary care doctor. In other words the insurance company expected me to put on a blindfold and select a doctor from their list and designate him/her before I even spoke to them. To them all doctors were the same and any one would do. Shameful.

      • L January 9, 2020 at 10:35 am Reply

        You had to select a primary care doctor with medicare????

        • Don M January 9, 2020 at 10:45 am

          No . Not straight Medicare but and HMO. When in an HMO one must go to “in network” doctors labs and hospitals. Also one must have a designated (PC) Primary Care doctor who refers one, monitors and controls your medical care. When this is the case you had better have the right PC!! The idea that any doctor will do is ludicrous.

        • L January 9, 2020 at 10:51 am

          Ah, HMO. I avoid HMOs because I don’t want the doctors they want me to see

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 11:14 am

          Excuse me;can anyone tell me what an HMO is? I suppose it’s like the new trend,here,for doctors to club together (is this the right word?) in one building. That’s going on,here.since the last decennium,and the problem is that,when not satisfied with your doctor,it’s not allowed to choose another doctor in the same building.And probably it’s also not allowed to choose a doctor in one of the other center’s because they divided the city in a few area,and each center has a monopoly over their own part of town.And we? We are just the patients,without any choice,or rights.As a matter of fact,they,more or less,own us,and our health.And our money.Disgusting situation!

        • L January 9, 2020 at 12:15 pm

          An HMO is a “health maintenance organization”…in other words, an oxymoron. You can only see the doctors on their list. Then you have to choose a primary care provider who acts like a gatekeeper to the specialists. There is also something called a PPO (Preferred provider) which has more flexibility but also costs more, and is not available everywhere. If you choose regular medicare you can avoid all that and see whatever doctor you want, but then you end up paying more because supplemental insurance to help with costs is more expensive. It’s all just one huge mess. And for someone like me, who sees NDs or integrative doctors it’s worthless, since NDs are not covered (or acupuncturists) and most integrative doctors now no longer accept insurance.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 11:25 am Reply

        You’re 100% right,Don.They have not only taken away our free choice for the kind of medication,we want (natural vs chemical) but even to which medical center you have to go,and who is your doctor.Here,when you need surgical care,they choose which hospital to go,so,when they order (!!!) you to go to a hospital,100 km’s from home (and family),you’ll have to go there,or pay the full costs yourself (so;only for the rich people among us).And,like in your situation,”my” center also has it’s own lab,and pharmacy,although I’m still allowed to choose an other pharmacy (which,actuelly doesn’t matter because most farmacies in my town have fused together,anyway.

        • Don M January 9, 2020 at 12:25 pm

          Henk…… An HMO is a Health Maintenance Organization. The specific insurance company contracts with Medicare to monitor and provide you the services inside their specific network (HMO). Doctors of all specialties as well as laboratories and hospitals sign up and agree to accept what the insurance com[any is willing to pay. It is called “in network” or out of network. On all the “out of network” things (doctors, hospitals and labs) you must pay the full cost because your insurance plan pays nothing. For your medical bills to be covered by insurance you must stay inside the network. As you say … you have little choice in facility or doctor. That is why one MUST find that reliable PC who makes good choices with his referrals.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 12:38 pm

          Thanks,Don and L.;that is,more or less,the same as it is,over here;the insurance companies are in charge,and descide what’s “best for you”.And this is also the main complaint against this whole system,comming from patients ánd doctors;insurance agents taking descisions in medical matters.Só wrong!!!

  50. Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 12:49 pm Reply

    Hi Anne,thanks for the invitation.I don’t “do” any of the so called “social” networks,so,no FB,or WA,or Twitter,but we may,for a start,communicate by email,if you’d like to.My address: hnoordh@gmx.net

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