Floxie Hope


This site is to give HOPE to those who are suffering from Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome as a result of being poisoned by fluoroquinolone antibiotics – Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox, Floxin, etc.  It contains stories of healing.

Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox and all other fluoroquinolones are dangerous drugs that can have devastating effects that cumulatively I’ll refer to as Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome or Floxing.  Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing includes damage to connective tissue (tendons, ligaments, cartilage, fascia, etc.) throughout the body, damage to the nervous systems (central, peripheral and autonomic), and more. The damage done by fluoroquinolone antibiotics can destroy a person’s quality of life or even kill them. Certainly, there is a time and a place for drugs with dangerous side effects. If you find yourself in a septic shock induced coma, fluoroquinolones may save your life. Unfortunately, these drugs are not being reserved for life or death situations. People are being prescribed them for urinary tract infections, suspected prostate infections, upper respiratory infections, as a prophylactic for travelers’ diarrhea, ear infections, pink eye, etc. Thousands of people have suffered needlessly from the devastating effects of fluoroquinolone antibiotics, when another, safer antibiotic could have, and should have, been used.

The damage done by fluoroquinolones is largely unacknowledged by the medical establishment and an accurate diagnosis, compensation and relief are difficult to come by. There is no known cure for Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing.  However, many people continue to LIVE after being poisoned by fluroquinolones.  They find healing, recovery, perseverance, compassion and hope.  These are their stories.

This site is meant to give hope for healing to those who are adversely effected by fluoroquinolones.  It is no way meant to disregard the pain of those who are chronically suffering from the horrifying effects of Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox or the other fluoroquinolones.  There are people who don’t recover.  Their stories are real and they matter.  There are also people who are able to recover and I share their stories with the hope that they inspire others, or at least give hope that recovery is possible.

Here is a New York Times article about the dangers of fluoroquinolone antibiotics – http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/popular-antibiotics-may-carry-serious-side-effects/?_r=0 – more news stories, research papers and other resources can be found on the “Links and Resources” page.

Here is a Facebook group that is a great resource for those going through Fluoroquinolone Toxicity – https://www.facebook.com/groups/floxies/

Featured post – I’m floxed. Now what?

The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution Ebook has helped many Floxies to recover, including DanielCindy and Ruth.  As a bonus, you will also receive The Floxie Food Guide – a book of diet guidelines to help you through fluoroquinolone toxicity:

flu tox get help you need banner click lisa




25,647 thoughts on “Floxie Hope

  1. Henk Noordhuizen January 9, 2020 at 12:50 pm Reply

    Hi Anne,thanks for the invitation.I don’t “do” any of the so called “social” networks,so,no FB,or WA,or Twitter,but we may,for a start,communicate by email,if you’d like to.My address: hnoordh at gmx point net

  2. Dee January 10, 2020 at 9:31 am Reply

    Hi all! Well here is what I know about my contact dermatitis due to lidocaine injections. I have a Doctor that is pretty good and also recognizes my FQ reaction and has a pretty good understanding of it. So yesterday I went to see him about this ongoing dermatitis which in his opinion I had a hypersensitive reaction to the lidocaine which caused a mast cell activation because my immune system is very compromised by my Cipro reaction. Therefore my immune system gave me a chronic reaction to the lidocaine trying to fight off this allergen entering my body!! So I don’t know much about mast cell reaction but I know L you have done a lot of research? For now my Doc has prescribed Eucrisa a “non” steroid creme to try and treat my sores. Do any of you know much about this reaction?? Do you think my reaction will calm down in time since it has been 10 weeks post lidocaine? I would think my immune system and mast cell activation would eventually calm down. Of course my immune system is not “normal” so I’m guessing may take a few months??? Any ideas on this?? Damn Cipro anyway for causing this!!!

    • L January 10, 2020 at 11:46 am Reply

      Mast cell is a huge issue, and still much misunderstood. I actually went to an allergist who deals with mast cell issues, early on in this congestion nightmare. The problem with the initial mast cell tests are that if they are positive, it means you have it. If they are negative, it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t! So I did the first two, both negative, and the third I believe involves a biopsy so I stopped there. She put me on a compounded medication (ketotifen) which also didn’t seem to make much of a difference. I stayed on it for a while because it is also used for asthma, but finally stopped after about 6 months since it is not covered by insurance.

      If you had mast cell activation syndrome, I think you would have more than that one reaction. This is systemic. At any rate, I came to be in touch with this lovely woman out of Australia, who is kind of a mast cell guru. She has a site that talks about diet and other things. Check her out. https://alisonvickery.com.au/histamine-intolerance-which-food-list-should-you-use/

    • Madge Hirsch January 10, 2020 at 5:59 pm Reply

      Hi Dee- I am wondering if my ongoing hive issue might have something to do with mast cell activation. Taking Cetirizine (generic of Zyrtec) worked fine but even a half pill was making me very somnolent. On looking up Zyrtec side effects I came across another medical horror that I was starting to have hints of- Zyrtec withdrawal . I had been trying to take as little as possible to keep the hives under control and was managing 5mg every 3/4 days. But I had noticed that when it was time to take another pill the hives seemed worse than before and also that my scalp was itching and burning which I had not had before. To my consternation I found loads of stories from people who had awful symptoms of entire body itching when stopping Zyrtec even when they had been taking it for hay fever and such allergies and had never had hives! Some people had been on it for years and their withdrawals lasted months. I stopped immediately and now it is a week since my last dose. The hives have come back plus itching on the soles of my feet and palms but today it has been a bit better and the scalp itching and burning has reduced. I had only been taking this horrible drug for 5 /6weeks and have only taken about 9 pills altogether but I feel I have had a close shave. I have sent for some Benadryl cream to put on when the itching gets really bad.

    • natasha2017 January 21, 2020 at 2:53 pm Reply

      I wonder why people try solve problems caused by drugs with even more drugs? There is one and amazing way – find a good homeopath. Never take drugs again and get better with your health. Don’t pay attention what G****le says, do the opposite.

      • L January 21, 2020 at 2:58 pm Reply

        I mostly agree with what you say. There are times when drugs are the ONLY alternative (eg a rescue inhaler.) And honestly homeopathy has never worked for me. However, my life was SAVED by a naturopath and nutrient IVs. ALL the health strides I have made in this nightmarish journey…ALL of them were from natural practitioners and treatments.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:52 am Reply

        Homeopathy only works for some people;I’ve given it a try but for me it never worked.And I know a lot of people on whom it failed to work.

        Believing the opposite of what Google tells us? Google only acts as a search engine,showing links. Their selection of which links are shown on the first page(s) might have been biased (or not) but it is the user who has to make a choice and read every bit of info carefully and only trust it when other sources confirm the info.Don’t blaim Google for wrong information;they only point to sources of good,and bad,usefull or not at all usefull information.What to read,and believe is your own responsibility.

  3. L January 10, 2020 at 12:18 pm Reply

    I was just reviewing the site I posted above for Alison Vickery, who deals with mast cell and histamine issues, and thought this particular page would be of interest to those still dealing with gut issues. She talks about the use of binders in helping to remove mytotoxins, heavy metals, etc. https://alisonvickery.com.au/binders/

  4. Don M January 10, 2020 at 2:09 pm Reply

    Comments please…….. I just returned from a visit to an ND doctor. He thinks that among several other things that NAD would help my complaints of unsteady balance and spacey feeling. It is not so much “brain fog” as it is fatigue, spacey feeling and very poor sleep. Also I am wondering if NADH would not do as well. Since it would be orally I suppose it would be much longer before real benefits were seen. Is it worth the effort and expense? Comments?

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 10, 2020 at 2:38 pm Reply

      I think so,Don.And adding Pau D’Arco will improve the absorption,adding to the effect.In fact;I take both,and although not long enough for a definite report,it seems to improve my energy.The character of the FQ toxofication,with frequent ups and downs,makes it hard to be sure,though.

    • L January 10, 2020 at 2:48 pm Reply

      NAD has potentially some great benefits. The problem, like with everything else, is absorption. (I got NAD IVs and they were EXPENSIVE!) Here is a great article re the bioavailability…of course they are trying to sell a product as well. But I would try to find perhaps liposomal or maybe even oral drops might work better than just a pill that has to fight its way through the digestive tract. https://nadovim.com/nad-in-a-pill-challenges-bioavailability-and-formula/

      • Don M January 10, 2020 at 5:14 pm Reply

        Thank you Henk and L……….. Since I got home I have been doing some reading on NAD and it appears to be worth a try. Thank you L for the reference to the web site about Nadovim. It is some very interesting reading. The per bottle price is a “bit !!!” expensive but if it would work as well as the IV it might be the way to go. The fatigue, sleep problem and the unsteady balance problem are my worst ones now. If they were corrected or just helped I could deal with the others a lot better.

        • L January 10, 2020 at 5:42 pm

          I don’t recall the exact amount now of the IVs and I had to do a minimum of 3 or 4, …all in days in a row, and I recall it being WAY more expensive than the other IVs I did, which were themselves expensive. I know it was over $1,000…maybe even 2. It is often used now to get people off drugs and alcohol without having to go through the awful withdrawals.

          anyhow, if there is something that can replicate that, that’s great. If you do, report back!

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 3:04 am

          Don,have you,because of the sleep problem tried Magnesium L-Threonate? This one easily passes the blood/brain barrier and does work better on mental things,sleeping problems included.For me it’s too expensive but I tried it experimentally,for a while,and it really works.

          For now,I stick to the cheaper Glycinate form,and combined with melatonin and a mug of camomilla tea my sleep is,more or less,oké.Only the feeling of exhaustion at wake up is still ther,but I have that for about 20 years,now,probably caused by the PPI I used,and the magnesium defficiency it caused.It started right after I started the Losec,but because I had a few very dramatic and stressfull experiences,just before the Losec,I considered the Losec “not guilty”.To learn,later on,that it was the start of my health detoriation,and the cause of a growing list of other med’s on my list,and even more problems and detoriation.This is how the Farmafia works.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 3:57 am

          Don,and others with fatigue, sleep problems,unsteady balance and tingling in hands,feet,legs might be interested in Dr.Mercola’s article for toda:


          Just ordered 2 spray bottles of B12 because my last I finished my last one a few days ago.This is by far the most convenient way of supplementing B12,it’s cheap (about € 0,10 per day),and it is an effective way of getting more B12 into your system.I use it since several years,now;started during my “Losec” time.

        • Don M January 11, 2020 at 6:49 am

          In the end it is a pitch toward selling one on trying the NAD+ IV treatment. https://www.ivforlife.com/treatments/nad-iv/ But there is some interesting information learned by reading the information on the web page. What I am learning is that the treatment lasts about 5 (or more) days and costs from $4,000 up. See next post for some information about NAD+ sublingual drops.

        • Don M January 11, 2020 at 6:52 am

          https://alivebynature.com/liquid-nmn-drops-the-ultimate-delivery-method/ The web page discussing the NAD+ sublingual drops and other items that they also sell.

        • Don M January 11, 2020 at 7:20 am

          Henk and L ……….. I do use Magnesium L-Threonate and sublingual B 12 which is Methylcobalamin (10 to 15 mg daily) as well as Dr. Carolyn Dean’s Remag liquid magnesium. I also use a lot of infrared light therapy to avoid any ingested pain killers. Maybe this is the reason that things are not worse than they are. I would just like to minimize the balance and spacey feeling problem. The FQ toxicity seems to have really affected this part of my nervous system. This NAD+ looks promising for that. Maybe the sublingual drops would work and one could eliminate the high cost of the IV treatment.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 8:38 am

          I hope it works for you,Don.Good luck,and have a nice weekend.

  5. Dee January 10, 2020 at 6:49 pm Reply

    Madge, wow that is interesting what you found out about Zyrtec. That is good you quit taking it. I took Zyrtec for 3 day’s. It didn’t seem to help my dermatitis issues so I stopped it. I have read suggestions to try Quercetin as a antihistamine? I’m thinking of trying it? I am totally stumped about what product to put in my skin sores to get rid of this red, itchy, scabby sores. I have not tried hydrocortisone or steroid creme as I am concerned about using steroid cremes. I ordered a product called Emciaid which is all natural and I guess some people have had luck healing their skin with it?? We shall see. I’m getting pretty discouraged at healing this skin disaster! I’m just praying my immune system will calm down in time and it will go away. I pray🙏🏻🙏🏻

    • L January 11, 2020 at 12:09 am Reply

      Quercitin did not help me with my issue, but I would certainly give it a try. Lots of health benefits.

      • Madge Hirsch January 11, 2020 at 6:32 pm Reply

        I have thought about trying it. Apparently it is not well absorbed orally and adding bromelain helps with this. NOW do a combined supplement as do Doctor’s Best. The problem is that I am on Eliquis ( an anticoagulant ) because I have afib and bromelain has some anticoagulant properties too. It might even be the Eliquis that is causing the hives though I have been on it since last March when I had the TIA and the hives only started about 7 weeks ago. Plus I have had hives in the winter before. The itching ix affecting my sleep. I actually think it’s probably floxing as I have been getting some facial neuropathy as well . I have had this before like a tingling/ crawling sensation in my cheek .

  6. SLOVAKIA January 11, 2020 at 2:45 pm Reply

    Hi friends , I have a question, what water do you drink? fresh or tap? I drink from the tap and a lot because of detoxification, but I’m worried, because some say there may be fluoride in the tap too … what is your opinion, experience?

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 3:08 pm Reply

      Here some info in english

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 11, 2020 at 3:09 pm Reply

      And in Slovakian?? I can’t read,you probably can:


    • L January 11, 2020 at 3:49 pm Reply

      Where do you live? There are very few places in the US that do not add fluoride, which you want to avoid. If you live in another country your odds are better. You can find this info online. Then there are all the other things like lead you want to avoid. I buy mine from a
      water store, 3-5 gallons at a time. I buy distilled and add back in the minerals with something called ConcenTrace. Reverse osmosis is probably fine too. https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/

      • Don M January 11, 2020 at 5:17 pm Reply

        There are also filters that one can buy and install at home that will remove the fluoride from your water. Just have to google for the information.

  7. Dee January 12, 2020 at 8:50 am Reply

    Madge, maybe try the Quercetin without the Bromelane and see if it helps your itching some?? No harm done?? I think I might try it just to see if it helps my itching?? I couldn’t sleep last night because my itching was so bad so I guess I have nothing to lose??

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 14, 2020 at 2:52 am Reply

      Hi,Dee,today an article by Mercola that might give a possible solution for your skin problem.So logical,in fact that I didn’t think of it: vit.D.You’ll need it,in a bio-active form (vit.D is oftens old as an oily substance,but it must contain a bio active form to work well).You can rub it in/on the effected skin parts,if you want to give this a try.

      Most people,today,are very deficient in vit.D.Not enough direct sunlight,and taking a shower,every day,makes it inpossible to obtain your vit D. from the sun,anyway.And you NEED cholesterol for your skin,to produce vit.D! Here’s the article:


    • Madge Hirsch January 14, 2020 at 1:48 pm Reply

      I have had some respite with the hives. I have stopped taking NAC for a few days now. I had doubled my dose to 1200mg a day whioe fighting off a bug that my husband came down with. I will have a week or 10 days off and then restart. Any respirewith the dermatitis yet?

  8. Andrea January 12, 2020 at 9:12 am Reply

    Don, I’ve read you’re interested in trying NAD supplement. I’ll give you my experience. I’ve tried it in the past. It was NAD+ from Life Extension (Nicotinamide Riboside). I’ve tried it for only a few days, and I stiopped immediately. It was giving me weird headaches and a bad feeling overall. Just my experience of course.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 12, 2020 at 10:04 am Reply

      Andrea,I use NAD for several weeks now,since a few weeks combined with 1 cup (=1 teaspoon) of Pau D’Arco,every day.Just stopped de Pau D’Darco,temporary,because my divertical started bleeding,yesterday.I don’t think the P’D is the cause but for a faster healing,stopping the P’D seemed the best thing to do.Have had no headaches from the NAD.Maybe you might try with extra drinking,next time? Taking in too little water is a known cause of headaches.

      • L January 12, 2020 at 11:28 am Reply

        and I got IVs of NAD every day for 3 or 4 days, each time for several hours. Zero side effects. (Didn’t help the issue I had hoped it would help, but who know what benefits I might have gotten from it.)

        • Don M January 14, 2020 at 6:36 am

          L……. To read the benefits that NAD can give is very impressive. As you say…… Does it really live up to the claims for everyone? The claim for IV is that it puts 400% more of the “good stuff” into your blood than using oral forms. Will the sublingual liquid be better and show some “real” results? Will just have to see.

          Checked with my ND and it appears that he is getting $250 per IV treatment. As I read the online sales pitches it appears that at least 4 IV treatments are needed. Rather expensive if the sublingual drops will work ………. only slower.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 14, 2020 at 6:56 am

          Don,might this info be helpfull?


          I’ll stick to my NAD caps,and add the Pau D’Arco back in,after my guts have healed from the bleeding.Slower,but much cheaper,and faster isn’t always better, in MHO.The Pau D’Arco,besides other health advantages,speeds up the absorption of the NAD.

        • L January 14, 2020 at 10:16 am

          well his IVs were actually less than mine….but yeah, I would definitely try the sublingual…or perhaps there is a lypo-spheric form?

        • Don M January 14, 2020 at 7:52 am

          I have read most all of the information on the AlivebyNature web site. At $36.95 per month for their liquid NAD+ I think it is worth a try to avoid the higher cost of the IV. Will sublingual liquid be beneficial enough to be worth it? I guess I’ll just have to try it and see.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 14, 2020 at 8:01 am

          You’re right,Don;only trying such things will prove if it’s worth the money. It is cheaper than I expected it to be,but still quite a bit more expensive than my caps and the P D’A tea. Please,let us know if this works for you,as soon as effects are noticable,or should have been but weren’t.

        • Don M January 16, 2020 at 8:16 am

          CORRECTION!!! I previously said that AlivebyNature’s liquid sublingual NAD+ would be $36.95 per month. WRONG!!! Upon receiving the product I find that the little 15 ml bottle is to be used at a rate of 0.5 ml sublingually about 8 times per day. Meaning that a $36.95 bottle with last less than 4 days. Requiring about 8 bottles per month at a cost of $295.60. Not at all what I envisioned it to be when reading the literature. It may be “good stuff” but is it worth that much?

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 8:25 am

          You know,Don,using my quite cheap NAD capsules,optionaly combined with Pau D’Darco for a better absorption,might be taking a bit longer to fully work but,after eading what the AlivebyNature product costs,and the IV treatment,I prefer my cheaper choice ;-))

        • L January 16, 2020 at 11:52 am

          curious if anyone makes a liposomal one….which would also aid in getting it where it needs to be without the degradation of digestion

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 2:04 pm

          As far as I think to remember,that’s what the Pau D’Darco is doing;getting it where you need it (Mercola article,that I linked here,a little while ago).

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 8:29 am

          CORRECTION: it’s,in fact,not a choice at all because I couldn’t possibly afford either of those other two possibilities.

        • L January 16, 2020 at 11:51 am

          yikes! that is quite a bit. Well, like I said, those particular IVs I recall being the most expensive of a very long list of IVs they offered.

        • Don M January 17, 2020 at 9:38 am

          L…… Her is a listing of the NAD in lipo form. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=liposomal+nad%2B&t=crhs&ia=web

        • L January 17, 2020 at 11:18 am

          seems like that might be the way to go. Still not cheap, but seems worth a month’s try (looking at the quicksilver.)

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 17, 2020 at 11:35 am

          L. I think “Still not cheap” is an understatement.One month will cost you $54 + shipping;that’s over $650 for a year supplement.

          “Quicksilver Scientific Liposomal NAD+ Gold is on the cutting edge of anti-aging supplementation. That doesn’t mean that its principal ingredient, NMN, is some sort of miracle cure that will send you back to your early 20’s. Rather, NMN supplementation is one of the most viable methods for raising NAD+ levels in the human body. NAD+ is essential to all life on Earth and its decline MAY be one of the greatest factors in the aging process”.

          I think,TIME is the main factor ;-)) And I think that the wish of staying forever young,and the fear of getting old is effectively exploited,here.With no guarantee,whatsoever. The “Gold” refers to the price,I suppose?

    • Don M January 12, 2020 at 1:57 pm Reply

      Andrea……. Thanks for the reply. The NAD that you were taking (from Life Extension) was in pill form. Pill form…..meaning it had to pass through the digestive system.The one that I am going to try is a liquid administered as sub lingual. Made and sold by Alive by Nature https://alivebynature.com/liquid-nmn-drops-the-ultimate-delivery-method/ The sublingual liquid ends up with a higher percentage in the blood. Will changing the way it is administered make a difference? We will see. Thanks for the heads up about possible headaches.

  9. Larry January 13, 2020 at 2:56 pm Reply

    lisalisa12years, I believe you’ve mentioned that you’ve had nerve damage for many years now? What are your symptoms?

  10. Don M January 14, 2020 at 9:57 am Reply

    Dee……….. Look into Niacinamid. There might be some way that it could be useful in your trying to treat your skin sores.

  11. Dee January 14, 2020 at 5:35 pm Reply

    Henk. Thanks for the info!!!!
    Madge, went to new Derma yesterday. He thinks I have Nummular eczema. Nasty stuff. You need strong steroids to knock it out. Sooooo it looks like I might have to use steroids. Can take a long time to heal. I am bummed. Glad your hives are better!!!!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 15, 2020 at 3:54 am Reply

      Hi Dee,don’t mention it.Read about the derma;he “thinks” you have Nummular eczema? Sounds very scientificaly diagnosed ;-)) No known cause,but surgery might contribute to the cause.Might take a yeea to improve.


      Well,I’d give bio-active vit. D oil a try,and maybe some other remedies,before ever going for the strong steroids,which will not “knock it out” but only give temporary improvement;this is a chronic condition.This alopathic “remedy” is called “managing the symptoms”,which iswhat the alopathics,most of the time,do;they are not “healers”.They only “manage” the symptoms with other “medicines”.Which might,after a while,create a need for other yet another bubch of “medicines”.Etcetera;saw my mother die,eating meals of pills and capsules,every day,at age 57.

      Nature can really heal,and the vit D. oil,and UV therapy will probably do a better job than more synthetic stuff,like steroids.Narrow-band UV-B 311 nm Philips lamps are,as far as I know,the best in this field.I mainly use mine for up-leveling my vit. D. and don’t use them often,or on a regular base,but they seem to help with the excema I have (Manager’s disease).

      Comming to think of it:vit.D oil, UV-therapee,which produces vit. D on/in your skin; Dr. Mercola might not be that far of,with his advice :-)) If possible,you might want to use both.Remember;you’ll need a bio-active vit. D oil;others (the cheap vit. D drops) might not work.

    • Rae January 15, 2020 at 11:33 am Reply

      Try original Listerine (gold one) for the rash. Test with some on a cotton ball first. You can cut up and soak a baby wipe in it and leave that on the spots (the baby wipe will stick).

      Listerine has eucalyptus, menthol, a form of salicylic acid and thymol.

      • Rae January 15, 2020 at 5:12 pm Reply

        Top Care and Equate use the same formula as Listerine. It really works for shingles!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 15, 2020 at 2:29 pm Reply

      Dee,the advice from Rae,although with the best intentions,is a bad one;all variëties contain fluoride,and the gold one (Rae’s favorite) even contains a double dose of fluoride.Better keep away from it.This is,in fact a mouth “water”.

      • Rae January 15, 2020 at 3:44 pm Reply

        Zero fluoride in the American brand, Henk! See for yourself!!!


        • L January 15, 2020 at 3:50 pm

          except under inactive ingredients, the first is “water” and if it is manufactured in the US then there is likely fluoride in that water. Also it doesn’t say “purified” or “distilled” or anything of that nature.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 1:10 am

          You’re right,Rae! Strange,that they put that poison in Listerine,here,in NL.and not in the same product,in the USA ;might it be because you have fluoridated tapwater,and we don’t? Might it be that it’s because of fear for overdose,because you have a daily intake,by tapwater,already? Here,the government is still trying to convince the people of the positive effect for theeth (which is never proven,and in fact,proven not to be there).In fact,it causes bone,brain tendon/muscle and nerve damage,in time.Mounting proof of that!

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 1:43 am

          But it does have Poloxamer 407 in it,which is not what I want to put in my mouth! Look here,under “Biological effect”:


      • Rae January 15, 2020 at 4:18 pm Reply

        L, Of course it is made with distilled water! Otherwise there’d be sediment, it would not be uniform, etc.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 1:19 am

          Rae,non-destilled water usually does not give sediment;you’re wrong on that one. Or maybe the water company who delivers your tapwater is not filtering it to the point where you can call it CLEAN.When there’s sediment in your drinking water,you’ve probably got a lot of other unwanted substances in it as well.Send a sample to a lab for a safety test!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 1:28 am Reply

      Sorry,Dee;I was wrong on the fluoride in Listerine.In NL the Listerine (yellow colour) has a double dose of fluoride,but in the US there seems to be no fluoride in it (well;not mentioned in the ingredient list,anyway).

  12. Andrea January 15, 2020 at 4:13 pm Reply

    In my experience, I’ve used many products with fluoride : toothpaste, mouthwash etc. None of them ever bothered me. I know everyone is different, but I belive that many of us wouldn’t react so bad for those small amounts, expecially when you don’t take them internally

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 1:24 am Reply

      Andrea you would be amazed how many substances easily pass the skin.And Fluoride,once in the body,builds up because it’s hard,for the body,to get rid of.

      Fluoride: Poison On Tap – Full Documentary:

      • Don M January 16, 2020 at 7:54 am Reply

        Thanks Henk. Thanks for posting the video. There is so much untruth in all the industries (especially the medical) that one does not know what to believe and what not to believe.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 8:06 am

          Hi Don,I know;it’s not easy to know what’s true,and what’s not.A simple rule: if there’s money involved,and the “facts and science” is presented by a source who’s profitting from it,direct,or indirect,chances are high that the truth is violated for gain.

      • L January 21, 2020 at 3:48 pm Reply

        Sad we have to fight our own EPA (environmental protection agency) here in the states, but here we go… http://fluoridealert.org/content/bulletin_1-17-20/

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:16 am

          Well,since they only protect company profits…We always joke about the corruption in “banana republics” wthout recognizing that our own western society system is just as corrupted,and rotten to the bone. Because we are afraid of what we’ll see when taking a better look.Nothing will change untill we accept that reality,and break down the old system to build a new,better one,in which we,the people,are in controle.

    • lisalisa12years January 16, 2020 at 1:33 am Reply

      The fluoride keeps our teeth strong. I’ve been going to the dentist my entire life.. I was told I had ” soft teeth ” never ever told that before. I’m 58 floxed in 2007 Didn’t know what was wrong until 2011. Starting trying desperately to heal using subliguals vitamins and minerals. I was almost totally depleted of everything. Thus the soft teeth. I had a primary tooth until I was 54 years old. It cracked in my sleep one night. Just found Jason’s has a probiotic toothpaste and also a tooth strengthening tooth past. They seem to have helped make my teeth stronger. I’ve been using colostrum four years this February. Helped with Gut issue and pain in my shoulders. Both torn. Actually trying desperately to survive and thrive as best possible until perhaps they find a way to stop slow or fix what’s happened to us. Until then Magnisium. For EVERYTHING b6 & biotin for neuropathy pain takes the burning and feeling of bugs crawling inside the legs. I just took as much as possible until the pain / burning went away now I take several capsules weekly depending on my nerve pain. Bless all the Floxies. This is the most horrific thing that’s ever happened to me and all of you. Has anyone developed kidney issues. Just when I think I have it covered. Seems like nope 🙅🏻 not yet. 13 years. I was 45 in the best physical and mental state ever in my life. I lost my Father to a tragedy. Exercise and walking helped the stress. I found PEACE from 2003 – 2006 I was in a Court room 5 days a 🙌 Finally OVER I climbed the Dunns. River falls in Jamaica in April of 2006. I took levequin the 1st time March 19th 2007. 4 more times up until 2009 Avelox once. Seems these companies KNEW the worst damage would happen months and years after stopping them. The reason why law suits said must have had an injury within 30 days of stopping these poisons. They knew some people would react immediately. The majority later years later STILL happening. Does it EVER stop ? I’ve felt okay for a week perhaps two than down and out. Praying for all to heal and for all to fight against this. Surrvive until they find a way to totally stop it. Permanently give our lives back. ✌ to all.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 2:21 am Reply

        Lisa,the claim that Fluoride makes your teeth strong is a myth.And the fact that you were deficient in Magnesium was the probable cause of “soft teeth”;it ruined my teeth as well and is a known cause of tooth decay and a long list of other health problems.In fact,magn. deficiency is often called the (dirty) doctor’s secret;they own much of their income to deficiency of magnesium,and other minerals and vitamines.

        Their problem? Law does not allow patenting natural substances like magnesium,or vitamine D. Yet!

        • Don M January 16, 2020 at 8:02 am

          Henk….. I read in many different places that fluoride is an industrial waste. To get rid of it was expensive for them so they set out to convince the public that fluoride had health benefits. Fluoride is even manufactured now days. I requisitioned my city about using it in our water and was told by one of the city engineers that the fluoride “they bought” was of the highest quality “manufactured”. They BUY “manufactured” fluoride to dump in our water!!!

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 8:09 am

          Half truth,here,Don;Fluoride is a by-product of the aluminium industry,so;it is an industrial product.

        • sheila January 16, 2020 at 10:37 am

          so I have been researching the fluoride and teeth and here’s a link that is easy to understand: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-does-the-fluoride-in/
          a small excerpt: Fluoride is a naturally occurring element that prevents tooth decay when ingested systemically or applied to teeth topically. The fluoride ion comes from the element fluorine. Fluorine, the 13th most abundant element in the earth’s crust, is never encountered in its free state in nature. It exists only in combination with other elements as a fluoride compound. It is found in this form as a constituent of minerals in rocks and soil everywhere. Water passes over rock formations containing fluoride and dissolves these compounds, creating fluoride ions. The result is that small amounts of soluble fluoride ions are present in all water sources, including the oceans.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 11:22 am

          Sheila,there is little evidence of Fluoride preventing tooth decay,and in the meantime a mountain of evidence that it lowers,IQ in children (and,later on,adults).It is a neuro toxine,samages bone structure etc.More than enough reasons to keep away from Fluoride.

          Both articles you linked have opposite opinions,and in that case it’s smart to go with the safer opinion,I guess.

        • sheila January 16, 2020 at 4:40 pm

          that’s why I posted both so people can do more research and make up their own minds. These are not my personal opinions

        • L January 16, 2020 at 12:00 pm

          I would not rely on information provided by the American Dental Association. Like the AMA, they have been “schooled” by corporate interests. https://holisticdentalinstitute.com/dangers-of-fluoride-in-toothpaste/

        • Andrea S. January 16, 2020 at 11:30 am

          I really wish here in the states we had an option of non flourinated water. As a kid I grew up on flourinated water and also got substantial flouride treatments from my dentist. Here I sit with every molar chock full of fillings. So much good that did me. That coupled with a more then likely aggressive drill happy dentist. My boys all three of them have perfect choppers. I think each kid had one filling. One measly filling and were lacking in their brushing and oral health. But I don’t attribute that to flouride as we always had some type of reverse osmosis filter in the kitchen. I know it’s a hot and debatable topic. From what I understand Flouride is beneficial in the very early years but serves useless once the teeth are formed. The majority of people who are having tooth loss in their older years is due to periodontal disease or very bad oral hygene ie: sick or elderly who cannot care for their teeth daily.

          Speaking of teeth I wondered if I could ask those of you who had your root canal teeth removed was it hard to get the tooth taken out and did you seek a holistic doctor? How did you replace with an implant? I have had a bad run with my teeth this is all prior to my stupid self medicating on a small dose of cipro. Although my teeth have gotten worse. Anyhow I am still in pain and want to remove the two teeth that were recently root canaled. I am curious what some of you did to replace the teeth? I don’t want to grind down a perfect tooth next to the gap so it seems an implant is the better choice? Anyhow sorry to digress off your post Henk. 😉

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 11:48 am

          “From what I understand Flouride is beneficial in the very early years” Well,those are the years that the young,growing brain of children is highly sensitive to neurotoxins.That’s why they (Farmafia and government) put them full of fluoride,and things like MSG,Mercury and Aluminium,found in vaccines.Now making them mandatory!

        • L January 16, 2020 at 12:20 pm

          Like you I had TONS of fluoride growing up, and also TONS of cavities. And yes, I wish they would just do away with the fluoride altogether in our water. WE are the LAST major industrialized country to continue to fluoridate, because, $$$$$ (like everything else.) There are a couple local municipalities that don’t fluoridate but they are few. I buy my water in 3 or 5 gallon bottles.

          I posted this before, but since you asked about root canals….Several years before being floxed I had three of them. Paid $1,000 each and the LOST each tooth within a year. At the time I was mad at all the money spent. But after I learned how toxic root canals are, I was glad they were gone. It is the only procedure where a dead body part is left inside you, and the bacteria from that can spread through the many canals and into your entire system. Most holistic dentists will not do them. I have only seen a holistic DDS since being floxed. He charges a little more than my old dentist, but not much, and definitely worth it. (He also removed my amalgam fillings.) (The gold standard for finding an holistic dds is one that is Huggins trained.) Anyhow, two of those teeth were on the end, so no real problem there. But the third was between two other teeth, and if you leave an open space the teeth eventually start to move and then you end up with more issues. I didn’t want any kind of surgery, so I have what is called a “flipper.” It’s just a little molded thing that looks like a real tooth with gum around it and it just pops into place. I only remove it at night when I brush my teeth, and clean it and then pop it back in. I think you can have a flipper made though that covers more than one tooth. https://articles.mercola.com/what-is-a-root-canal.aspx

      • L January 16, 2020 at 11:09 am Reply

        Fluoride does NOT keep teeth strong. I grew up with fluoride water, fluoride treatments, fluoride tooth paste and had more cavities than any one I know. Fluroide in fact SOFTENS the tooth. This was just all a big lie foisted on the public, so the aluminum industry could get rid of its manufacturing waste. Naturally occurring fluoride, along with OTHER minterals, was found to improve dental health in a small study done decades ago. But then the information was cherry picked to suit industry needs. https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/fluoride-in-water/

        • Andrea S. January 16, 2020 at 11:33 am

          L I too have a disgusting amount of cavities and we also had access to great denistry and flourinated water and dental treatments. Did nothing for me. When I was an adult and got a new dentist they said oh my… you grew up on well water? I was like no we had city water with flouride. My teeth are time bombs ready to go at any moment. I wish that flouride was optional in our drinking water.

        • L January 16, 2020 at 12:23 pm

          you and me and a LOT of other people. Even Erin Brokovich has joined the cause to remove fluoridation. Moms Against Fluoridation is a group that has been vocal about this for years…and now they are heading to court! https://www.momsagainstfluoridation.org/lawsuit/

  13. Anne January 16, 2020 at 2:52 am Reply

    Hi, Just in case this is useful for someone else. Four years out from poisoning, I’m finding some apparently safe relief for chronic plantar fasciitis from the topical salve sold by Lazarus Naturals. My father has Leukemia, and he told me that this brand works well for his pain relief needs. He’s tried another brand, but this one works best for him. I am not going to be taking CBD in pill or tincture form, but as a salve, this brand is pretty effective. The pain relief builds up over time. It doesn’t take immediate effect. I’m realising that one of my Cipro side effects is chronic pain in my heels/feet. I have to switch from waiting for it to be over, to managing the pain. https://www.lazarusnaturals.com

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 16, 2020 at 8:19 am Reply

      Anne,I ,too,have pains in my feet;don’t even know if it’s tendons or nerves,but most of it will probably be the tendons.Not every day,and not always on the same place(s),ome of these pains disappear in a few hours,some of them last for days,some even much longer.

      But,because I suspect most of them are from damaged tendon’s,I’m very weary of using anything to lessen or take away the pain,because the pain is a warning signal,and I’m afraid that taking away the pain might cause even worse damage because of putting too much stress on those,already weakened tendons.Please,be carefull!

      • Don M January 16, 2020 at 9:26 pm Reply

        I (without a doubt) have peripheral neuropathy. My feet are in a constant state of discomfort. My hands have weird things that happen to them. I use light therapy when ever they become painful. It works! It is not a lasting thing but works to temporarily mitigate discomfort/pain. I have a 12X12 light panel that I put my feet under. There seems to be a rather strange sequence of events that occur when my feet are under the panel. At first they tingle for about 10 minutes. Next they become painless. After about 30 minutes they stabilize to a comfort level. Upon removing the light this will last for a few hours. Painless and non invasive. So it can be repeated as often as one wants to do it. Try it. One has nothing to lose and may gain some comfort.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 17, 2020 at 3:10 am

          Hi Don,I just bought two of the Philips 175 watt infrared bulbs. What I noticed is that,where the backside of my old clear white infrared lamp got quite hot,immediatly after switching on,these ones stay remarkably cool,while the lightbeam,at a distance of ca. 40 cm’s is warm,instantly.Philips claims it has an output of 90% IR.From an other Philips source (I linked a while ago) I know that these lamps have exactly the right nm range.


          I paid under €30 for the lamps and shipping.Of course;you need an armature;mine is an old,heavy and steady desk lamp,inherited from my grandfathers limonade factory :-)) I wanted to put the other one in an armature,above my bed,but it doesn’t fit (yet ;-)) My former IR lamp,a clear one,100watt,did fit because the narrow part of the tube was longer.

        • Don M January 18, 2020 at 4:43 am

          Henk……….. “I wanted to put the other one in an armature,above my bed,but it doesn’t fit (yet ;-))” There is a bulb extender available. It is a male/female thing that screws into the existing socket and then one can screw the bulb into it. It will make about a 1 inch extension from the existing socket. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bulb+extender&t=crhs&ia=shopping

          Have you had a chance to use the bulbs? Do you find any pain relief from a treatment with them?

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 18, 2020 at 8:05 am

          Thanks,Don;I ordered 2 extenders at Dennisdeal.Will take 15-30 days for delivery.My lamps are industrial quality heavy duty lamps,and weight over 300 grams,so,I hope this will not be too heavy for those plastic extenders.If so,I can modify the armature to use without an extender;it’s quite easy.

          The old desk lamp,once owned by my grandfather and probably had a long life of duty in his limonade factory.It’s heavy, and stable,and made of oldfashioned steel,and it’s easy to aim in any direction you’d wish for.Way better than the armatures,Philips delivers today,and a perfect fit for this lamp!

    • L January 16, 2020 at 11:21 am Reply

      Had you tried other CBD topicals before? I ask because I have tried several of them and am a bit gun-shy about trying another.

      • Anne January 17, 2020 at 3:27 am Reply

        Hi L, I haven’t tried other brands, but if I remember correctly, my father did try other brands and dosages (which is expensive to do). In his case, the CBD dosage required trial and error. Also, in his case, this is his best pain relief option long term and he absolutely has to have this relief. I don’t want to take the oral kind, but topically CBD is working. I already have professionally made orthotics, and diagnosed plantar fasciitis. Some say that plantar fasciitis doesn’t mean that you have to stop walking. Back to CBD though, it seems to require time to build up in my system before I can tell it is actually working, so about a week of application before the pain relief really takes effect. As far as I can tell the product that I mentioned is a quality one with enough actual CBD in it to make a difference over time, if pain relief is what you are wanting to find for yourself? I think that Henk has a good point, I wouldn’t want to push so hard that I create additional tendon damage. So it’s all a kind of trial and error, guessing game, etc. I guess Flouroquinalone poisoning is generally like that.

        • L January 17, 2020 at 10:59 am

          Thanks for the reply. Yes, I thought it was supposed to work on first usage…

  14. Andrea January 16, 2020 at 8:34 am Reply

    To lisalisa12years

    Hi, I’ve read your post. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with that kind of pain and feelings. I hope one day you’ll find the peace we’re all looking for.
    One thing that got my attention is you’ve mentioned colostrum for GI issues. Right now, well, for a year now, I’m dealing with lots of guts issues. Probiotics sometimes help a little, sometimes they don’t.
    After reading your post I’ve googled colostrum and I’ve found that there’s some proof it can help with leaky gut. The problem for me is that I haven’t been eating any kind of dairy for about 2 months now, and it’s making a huge difference regarding the joint pain. Can I ask you what were/are your GI symptoms (diarrhea? constipation? etc) and how colostrum helped you? Thanks a lot. Also what kind and what dosages of colostrum are you taking?
    Oh, and feel free to ask me anything you want too 🙂

  15. sheila January 16, 2020 at 10:41 am Reply

    also on the fluoride subject here is another link that shows this topic is challenging, the key word I found was EXCESSIVE exposure would cause health problems and that level is identified in this article but how do we know how much we are actually getting is my question: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154164.php#takeaway

  16. L January 16, 2020 at 12:04 pm Reply

    Your sources are biased in old-school, AMA, big pharma dogma. You will not get the same health information from a routine allopath that you will get from an integrative MD or ND. And one of their review board is a pharmacist. They are only passing on the same biased information. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/reviewers

    • Don M January 16, 2020 at 9:36 pm Reply

      They always say to get nothing positive done form a committee. Looks like a bunch of “yes people” to me.

      • L January 17, 2020 at 12:51 am Reply

        That’s funny. Never heard that expression.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 17, 2020 at 2:04 am

          I dutch it is called “ja knikkers” (yes nodders) 🙂 We got lots of them 😦

  17. Andrea January 18, 2020 at 7:55 am Reply

    Has anyone ever tried L Glutamine (high dosage) for leaky gut?

    • A.Coleman January 22, 2020 at 8:35 am Reply


      I took glutamine for about 6 months for my digestive problems. It worked; but eventually started giving me headaches. So, if you try it watch the high dosage and maybe consider two months initially, then off a month on a month??

  18. Henk Noordhuizen January 19, 2020 at 2:19 am Reply

    After salt and saturated fats (The cholesterol myth) sun exposure proves to be yet another lie to NOT keep us healthy,told us by government and industries:


    How much prove does one need to realize that our “democracy” is,in fact Corporative Fascism?

  19. Henk Noordhuizen January 19, 2020 at 2:21 am Reply

    Oh,and let’s not the Fluoride lies!

  20. Henk Noordhuizen January 19, 2020 at 2:22 am Reply

    Sorry;let’s not forget the Fluoride lies!

  21. Henk Noordhuizen January 19, 2020 at 2:54 am Reply

    Oh.I forgot one; the lie that synthetic and chemical “medicines” would be better and safer than natural medicines and remedies.Well,of course;that’s why I’m sick,and my health is destroyed by PPI’s and antibiotics,during the last 20 years,and the little bit of health I got left is the bit I was able to restore with naturals.

  22. Henk Noordhuizen January 19, 2020 at 2:56 am Reply

    I forgot one; the lie that synthetic and chemical “medicines” would be better and safer than natural medicines and remedies.Well,of course;that’s why I’m sick,and my health is destroyed by PPI’s and antibiotics,during the last 20 years,and the little bit of health I got left is the bit I was able to restore with naturals.

    • Don M January 19, 2020 at 6:52 am Reply

      Henk…. Yup. Your right about the Pharma industry and many others too. I spent over 30 years with the idea that the doctors and their medicines could fix things. Then I got connected with the Internet and began to read. And guess what I learned? Many doctors were biased. They usually put tongue in cheek when asked if an alternative would work. Now I am not talking about emergency medicine. Emergency medicine and emergency rooms can and do save many lives. It is regular day to day medicine that has been co-opted by the Medial/Pharma industries. The much healthier people are the ones that try to avoid established medicine.

      I am learning that ND and Integrated Medicine doctors appear not to be so narrow minded as the industry influenced doctors. There is a world of alternative treatments out there. The fix does not have to always come from a prescription bottle or surgery.

      • L January 19, 2020 at 11:22 am Reply

        Yes, NDs and integrated medicine doctors have “seen the light.” They will always choose natural first, and prescriptions only as a last resort. Sadly, many of them are looked down upon by their peers. One of the NDs I saw early on, who was one of the most caring, kindest, concerned health care professionals you would ever want to know (I got IVs from her and she was also the one who gave me the regimen to get rid of a UTI without antibiotics) was loosely related to an MD in the community who routinely mocked her unorthodox treatments. And know who that doctor was? The one who put me on both prednisone and Cipro and destroyed life as I knew it.

        She was an avid surfer and was studying marine biology, and was going to do research in that area, when she was injured by standard medical “care” which damaged her heart. That was when she changed course and became a naturopath, which she did for several years. Sadly, that heart issue finally caught up with her and she had to have major heart surgery at the ripe old age of 34. She had to stop being an ND. A huge loss to so many.

        The person I credit with saving my life was a different ND. He was the first (and only) person I saw, after dozens of allopaths, who said “I can help you.” I have since had several integrated MDs who have all been great, and was especially fortunate to find an integrative cardiologist~ Now those I imagine are hard to come by. When others wanted me to take steroids for my heart issue, and I kept refusing, I finally found her. She said “let’s wait and watch instead.” And she was right. (I drive over 75 miles to see her, but so worth it.)

  23. Andrea January 19, 2020 at 6:58 am Reply

    Henk…everything in moderation…
    You need the sun, of course, but not too much, skin cancer is real. If you’re like me, with fair skin, all you need is about 15-30 minutes everyday in the midday summer sun (depending on where you live of course), that’s why I take vit. D supplements only in winter, and my vitamin levels are higher in summer 😉
    As far as the “cholesterol myth”, it’s not a myth. Too much cholesterol in your diet is very bad for you, you need fats of course, but the right ones (nuts,seeds,avocado,some fish etc.). Also remember that things like oats, brown rice and even vegetables contains small amounts of fats. But sayin that cholesterol is a myth is just wrong. And I’m more and more convinced that is a move from the food industry. The consumption of things like cheese, beef, pork, eggs has skyrocket today, and they’re telling us that is perfctly fine to eat those things. And there’s also a big amounts of studies that connect the consuption of those foods with a lot of diseases. The bulk of your daily calories should always come from carbs (the right ones of course) so I’m talking about : any kind of vegetables, legumes, moderate amounts of starchy foods (brown rice, sweet potatoes etc.) , small amounts of fruits, fats like the ones I mentioned above, and occasionaly some fatty fish.

    • Krabiw January 19, 2020 at 10:39 am Reply

      During evolution humans switched between glucose and ketone metabolism regularly. Carbs are glucose, too many carbs lead to a non stop glucose metabolism with higher oxidative stress and inflamation, blocking ketone metabolism and autophagy/mitophagy. See nobel prize 2016.

      That’s the logical reason more and more people suffer from cancer, diabetes and obesity these days. Also that’s why fasting is that healthy as it gets people into ketone metabolism and autophagy, what basicaly is a natural cellular repair mechanism which also boost cem cell proliferation.

      Cholesterol is just a transport hormone, which transports fatty acids to the cells and vice versa. This myth from Ancel Keys that cholesterol would be bad is debunked already, he had data from 22 countries but picked only the 7 ones where a fatty diet correlates with disease. If we look at all 22 countries there is no correlation anymore.

      Some assume that sugar industry funded him.

      Too many carbs kill our mitochondria slowly but steadily, that’s why post flox many have heavy relapses after high doses of sugars or wheat flour.

      I am on a high fat/protein, low carb diet since being floxed and I am 95% recovered within 2 years, in some areas even better then before because of ongoing autophagy.

      The problem aren’t animal products, it’s processed products with lots of additions. Same counts for fruits and veggies which today have over 50% less nutrition than 50 years before, they get more and more empty because of fast industrial growth.

      Your recommendation above can lead to a malnutrition in protein in which many vegans suffer from.

      • Andrea January 19, 2020 at 1:03 pm Reply

        “Your recommendation above can lead to a malnutrition in protein in which many vegans suffer from” I don’t reccomend a vegan diet, if you read more carefully I wrote about fish too. The fatty ones expecially. But I could go even furhter and say that small amounts of animal products, whatever it is, can be good for you, if eaten sparingly. But many studies show that high protein diets increase the levels of IGF-1 thus the risk of cancer.

        “The problem aren’t animal products, it’s processed products with lots of additions. Same counts for fruits and veggies which today have over 50% less nutrition than 50 years before, they get more and more empty because of fast industrial growth. ”
        Yeah right, because that doesn’t happens with animals right? The ones that comes from intensive farmings are expecially healthy. I agree with processed products though.

        “I am on a high fat/protein, low carb diet since being floxed and I am 95% recovered within 2 years, in some areas even better then before because of ongoing autophagy”
        Good for you. But this doesn’t proove anything. I’ve too greetly improved from 2017, but I’ve never been on a ketogenic diet, so what? For now, the people who live the longest (I’m talking about groups of people, not isolated cases), used to eat lots of vegetables, legumes, nuts, fruits and small amounts of animal products,
        Now, about cholesterol. It is shown that people with high HDL cholesterol and low LDL cholesterol, have way less chances to get heart diseases. And a diet like the one I wrote about is probably the best to get there.

        About Ketogenic diet. Do you really think that a diet where you’re constanly pricking your finger or checking your urine to see if you’re in ketosis is an healthy or sustainable diet in long run?
        Your body wants to burn glucose as a form of energy, not fat or protein. I agree, refined carbs and sugar are really bad for you, but that doesn’t mean you have to avoid carbs alltogheter.

      • sheila January 20, 2020 at 2:23 pm Reply

        I would like to just comment on the vegan diet – most people eat vegan to prevent the hideous deaths of animals, vegan diets are not deprived of protein that is a total myth, the B vitamin that can be an issue is due to the fact that B12 used to be abundant in the ground and it’s now depleted after all the misuse of the planet, therefore a supplement is sometimes necessary if the body has a propensity to deficiencies to begin with and if the person doesn’t want to vary their diet with the different colors and proteins that are abundantly available without eating dead animals, cholesterol ONLY comes from animals and some people can have a genetic issue with cholesterol. My nephew and his whole family are vegan and have been for their whole life and have never ever had any issues, that’s 10 people that I have watched with great interest to see if any of the myths about vegans being lacking in something were true and it really isn’t. I was vegetarian for over 22 years and I am now moving into vegan eating because it is a “clean” diet and with this floxed crap clean eating is key and I am already living the vegan lifestyle I refuse to have any dead animals in my clothing or cars or furniture it’s the only way we are going to save this planet we live on and our health. Most if not all of our food illnesses can be traced to eating animals not plants. Too high of a protein diet can cause stress on the kidneys but vegan is the healthiest for all concerned while saving our planet, when you don’t have to feed billions of animals you can feed billions of people and you save billions of lives not only animal but human as well. And the lack of safety regulations now in the USA with the meat industry means that you are at a greater risk of death by food when eating animals. Cattle have prions that cause mad cow disease those prions cannot be killed with cooking or freezing scientists have frozen these prions to 140 below zero which is lower than any refrigerator can go and they are still vital, they have heated them to the temperatures beyond the melting point of lead which is way higher than any cookstove is capable of and the prions are still vital, the scientists believe these prions may be the root of alzheimers and other brain degenerative diseases and once ingested they attach themselves to the brain and will never ever be able to be removed or killed. But the point is Vegans are not suffering deficiencies.

        • Andrea January 20, 2020 at 5:46 pm

          Hi Sheila, and thanks for sharing your experience. I’m not vegan and I’ve never been, even if I thought that going towards that direction would be just great for a lot of reasons. Today I’d defenetly give it a try, but my gut issues doesn’t allow me to digest fibers the way I used to, just a year ago. I always ate legumes,vegetables,fruits, all the good stuff, but now I really have to slow down on that kind of food, and that’s really sad. and it makes me very worried too. But sadly all those foods today, maybe fruits not that much, gives me constipation and gas.

        • L January 20, 2020 at 5:50 pm

          Yeah, I LOVE animals. But I cannot exist on a diet without them. I eat very small amounts of beef, chicken, fish. Cannot digest beans and other protein sources. And don’t eat dairy, save for eggs some goat’s milk cheese.

        • sheila January 21, 2020 at 12:34 pm

          I understand the few people who need for whatever reason to eat animals but to say that vegans are deficient is wrong that’s what I was responding to, vegans are no more deficient in nutrients than animal eaters. The myths need to stop. The misinformation needs to stop. Some people’s guts can only digest certain ingredients that’s fine, but this misinformation drives me nuts.

        • L January 21, 2020 at 2:53 pm

          I agree with you, Sheila. I think SOME vegetarians are not getting a balanced diet, but yes, you can get protein from other sources. Absolutely.

        • Sheila January 21, 2020 at 3:56 pm

          vegetarians eat everything animal but the flesh of the animal so they eat cheeses, eggs, and some eat fish but no actual meat which would mean fish if you truly are vegetarian therefore it’s almost impossible for them to be B12 deficient if you are speaking of vegan that is no animal products whatsoever and depending on their own predisposition to deficiencies can need a B12 supplement but usually nothing more than what animal eaters take – a multi vitamin daily and they get omegas from plant sources which do contain the proper amount. Vegetarian is not vegan.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:40 am

          It’s not possible to get enough vit. B12 out of veggies,because only a very few of them produce tiny amounts of B12.Sheila is wrong,here;vit.B12 is Not does NOT excist as a substance,in soil (except from,maybe,the soil of graveyards and battle fields),but has to be produced by certain bacteria:

          “Vitamin B12 is produced in nature by certain bacteria, and archaea.It is synthesized by some bacteria in the gut flora in humans and other animals, but humans cannot absorb this as it is made in the colon, downstream from the small intestine, where the absorption of most nutrients occurs”.

          So,even when we have the right organisms in our guts,the B12 they produce cannot be absorbed by humans. That’s why we have to rely on external sources like fish,meat and other animal-derived foods.Or supplements,of course:


        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:09 pm

          thank you for just flat out saying I am wrong gee I love this site – but here ya go – B12 is the only vitamin that is not recognized as being reliably supplied from a varied wholefood, plant-based diet with plenty of fruit and vegetables, together with exposure to sun. Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants.
          Point being I am not outright wrong as I stated clearly the current ground is depleted of this and that’s why supplements are needed I said that re-read the original post – it is in the soil and plants maybe not to the degree you would like, but vegans get enough B12 from fortified foods and plants that was the point you don’t have to eat dead animals to get it that was the purpose. I researched this quote above and won’t waste anyone’s time with tons of links but you can look it up online anytime

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 12:24 pm

          No;the B12 producing bacteria live in the soil,and on plants.In humans they are useless because at the time they produced the B12 they already passed the part where we absorb it (stomach and upper level of the intestines).That’s why we rely on the few plants that have B12,and animal sources.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:34 pm

          dang it appears you just repeated what I posted just in a different way. What the heck……

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 1:04 pm

          “dang it appears you just repeated what I posted just in a different way”

          No,I did not.You claim that there’s B12 in the soil.I tell you that there are bacteia,living in the soil and on certain plants,taht are able to produce B12 in the guts of herbivores like cows and goats.

          “so no there is NO science proving god exists none”

          No,I didn’t claim that there’s scientific proof of the existance of a “god”.

          Please,read more carefully whatever I write,befor accusing me of plagiarizing on what you wrote.And don’t forget to read the Wiki article on B12.It might contain usefull info for you.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 2:39 pm

          ok once again this is semantics in the soil or an organism in the soil it’s in the soil BUT the take away is that B12 is needed via supplements and a well balanced diet! please don’t get hung up on whether the organism is IN the soil or in the soil as just a component part of dirt which was not what I meant but that must be what you thought. Ok so we agree there is no science of god and we agree that state of mind is healing that is proven, sad depressed people have a harder time recovering science shows that a positive state of mind will speed healing – we agree not sure why your post said we didn’t agree on that…. faith is a belief in something positive for that person; I do read carefully – now here’s a point to take into consideration – as I scanned up from this comment box I see a lot of posts from you in response to my posts that I have not yet seen, that you may think I am responding to but I am not, my email is not sending me all these comments so I am at a disadvantage without all your responses to see and read so yes I have not read them so that could be construed as meaning to read more carefully but only if I have them. Filtering online sucks apparently but why I am not receiving comments via my email is worrisome what else am I not receiving. So understand that your most recent posts may not be the ones I am responding to… sorry for the confusion but that’s the case. In fact I see 4 posts from you that I have never received.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:48 pm

          No comment! Wow,I think I’ll have to take a break after having tried to read this one :-))

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 3:39 pm

          this whole thing was in response to vegans needing B12 and being deficient yes some need B12 supplements that’s all!!!! I wasn’t debating b12 existence or where it is or isn’t or how it’s created but that vegans sometimes need supplements

      • A.Coleman January 22, 2020 at 8:52 am Reply

        Hey everybody read carefully what Krabiw says. There is no statement to focus your diet on meat. I think it is a misconception that early man ate lots of meat that is causing the problem here. Early humans ate very little meat. We were scavengers who mostly consumed plants with a bit of lean scrap meat left over. What we did get; that very few other animals can get is bone marrow. We used tools to process long bones to obtain bone marrow.

        So, Krabiw saying we switched between a high fat diet and and one with few fats is spot on. It was not until around 100,000 years ago that our hominid ancestors got any appreciable meat in their diets through hunting and even then it was not an every-day source of calories.

        I am summarizing in my post above; but I have a PhD in Biological Anthropology and everything Krabiw says is true regarding the dietary habits of early hominids. The agricultural revolution is what totally changed the way humans eat. And that didn’t start until 10,000 years ago (much less in many parts of the world) and in evolutionary sense that is the blink of an eye.

        Our genetics / physiology is still based on a world where we get meat infrequently, though the amounts surely increased over time and high fat bone marrow has been a major nutrient until very recently (who here remembers cooking with lard?) and most of our diet is plant based; but we most certainly were NOT vegetarians either. Just as we need Vitamin C in our diet; unlike most other animals – we quit producing it naturally due to the large amounts of fruit our primate ancestors consumed; we also need meat and fats to get other nutrients such as B vitamins. These are very important in anyone who is a floxie.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 10:29 am

          I,as an amateur archeologist (with over 8 years of field work experience),fully agree.Much of our proteins probably came from worms,maggots and other insects,and leftovers from other animals,untill we learned how to hunt successfully.That was,when we started to make weapons,like spears and axes.What started as making tools,like scrapers,2,5 million years ago,eating “left-overs”,evolved in the more sophistivated weapons (spears,axes,fire arms and atom bombs;humanity has come a long way,to reach this point of civilization :-((

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 11:53 am

          I have studied nutrition and it’s my understanding that B vitamins especially B12 were abundant in the ground that is why humans get their B12 from animals the animals eat the ground plants and then humans eat the animals it’s my understanding that animals do not create B12 or other B vitamins in their bodies where we don’t, they consume them and then humans consume the animal. Therefore vegan diets are great they exclude the animal which also excludes cholesterol which is only found in animal flesh

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 12:15 pm

          Certain bacteria,able to produce B12,live on certain plants.That certain plants are eaten by animals,for instance,cows.It their (4!) stomachs these bacteria produce B12,and,because of the totaly different way of absorbing B12,they (their meat,and,in a lesser extend,in their “products”) build up B12 reserves.And NO;there’s no B12 in the ground.You can read all about B12 on the wiki page I linked.

        • A.Coleman January 22, 2020 at 12:48 pm


          Henk’s response is correct. Some B vitamins can be found in small amounts in various plants; but animal are the major source of the B vitamins. They do eat plants; but the animals have the capacity to use bacteria to produce B vitamins. One of the keys to successful absorption of B vitamins in our bodies is a healthy gut biome – another thing that fluoroquinolones rob from us.

          In fact B12 specifically doesn’t come from any plant sources!! If you find a vegeterian food that has B12 it is because it was added to that food as a supplement. And then you know what kind of B12 you will get – cyanocobalmin, which has very low bio-availability.

          You have to eat meat, or eggs, milk, cheese to get B12.

          In addition to Henk’s wiki post on B vitamins see this article that outlines the vitamins that we need and the animal vs. plant sources of them – https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plants-vs-animals/

          We all know how very critical B vitamins are to the pathways that fluoroquinolones damage. While you can supplement with quality methylated B vitamins; the best way to get them and have them be forms your body can use is by consuming foods with lots of B vitamins.

          I HATE liver; but I eat some every other week now because organ meat is the best source of nutrients there is. When you see a documentary about a predator making a kill what do they eat first; the tenderloin or the T-bone steak?? No they eat the internal organs; because that is where all the nutrients are found.

          Regardless of how I practiced my diet in the past; if I would focus on a paleo diet. If your digestive system can handle short-term fasting then that is something you might want to investigate to Krabiw’s original point.

  24. TERRI QUEEN January 20, 2020 at 5:16 pm Reply

    I am Terri , 2 years out from Levaquin x 8 pills…still a bit crunchy in the jts especially fingers jts catch, and shoulder …swallowing a little off yet…did magnesium, (vit c , watch it can make oxylates that cause kidney failure, with too much ) did walking as much as could tolerate, tendons and ligamants hurt and stiff, could not believe the noises my jts made, like my cartilage was getting shot, was exhausted a lot, jaws got painful and teeth at first, little anxiety, JESUS helped me through that!!…sorry, going to be a run on sentence for a run on horrible experience…could not pick up grandson 2 year old, for 6 months, and graduallly muscles and nerves began to coordinate and fire…when i tried to pick him up, at first, it felt like straps hanging on my shoulders. tendons and ligaments without muscle energy and firing…I have floaters now, may be from symbicort for asthma inhaler, .. or just more damage, i had weird thoughts at first, if I looked at a picture in a magazine, it could overwhelm me , much better now, I could control that with the Holy Spirit, I had no fear because of Jesus, I am still not good with memory, prolly increased by 75%, but better with comprehension, but still have to read same thing over and over , achilles still hurt, tested that here on the beach, …….can not do Physical Therapy job, a weird thing happend when I did ocean salt soaks in beginning, I got extremely nauseated, week later tried it on my arm and all night felt like my shoulder capsule was exploding, so much unreal type pain, next day had D.O. appointment and he thought i had frozen shoulder, had that a week, kept trying to send signals to nerve, and said God I want to praise you with my hands up in the air. it lifted miraculously, that was in the beginning…I had a magnesiun drip probably kept me from dieing, I was 59 and was on prednisone for asthma attack had negative on bacterial culture and they gave it anyways, which is a double no no contraindication …the docs i had, agreed it does a lot of damage in the body; but hey, they say its a good drug when needed…we are guiniea pigs ya know? bladdeer area also hurt, skin feels really rough and use to be smooth, also I look aged and wrinkly where i looked real young before..I BELIEVE PHARMAKEIA, MUCH OF IT, IS WITHCRAFT…I AM DEFINTELY DISABLED AND DIFFERENT I FELT LIKE A 35 YEAR OLD 58 YEAR OLD NOW I FEEL LIKE A 75 61 YEAR OLD…I BI BELIEVE FOR MORE HEALING IN CHRIST AMEN..EATING GOOD LOTS OF WATER, MAGNESIUM SOAKES ALL THINGS IN MODERATION..FINALLY STARTING TO STRETCH AND STRETCH RECEPTORS FEEL SOOOOO GOOD..MY SLOPPY PATRAGRAPH IS PART OF MY TIRED I DONT CARE ATTITUDE FROM THIS SORRY..PRAYING FOR YALL TO GET YOUR HEALTH IN CHRIST JESUS AMEN BE HEALED..I had fungus on my toenails right side only, prolly because of dimantled health, never had before, then ingrown had that removed 2 days ago with an infection and told do no no no on bacterial killeers, he said what can we do the ones floie hope recommend s that do not hurt do nothing for your skin infection..he wanted me to do clindmyacin ?? said it is in a class all its own, nota penicillin but still a bacterial killer…I opted for praye and epson salt magnesium soaks its getting better praise God..He got mad, of course, but I held my ground, and he admitted that he is hearing a lot of negativity on the fluroquinolones he said ” you all know this stuff has side affects . ” thanks TERRI

    • L January 21, 2020 at 2:56 pm Reply

      Glad you’re doing better, but can we please leave religion off this site?

      • Madge Hirsch January 21, 2020 at 5:55 pm Reply

        I second that. I think religious people should keep their religion to themselves. They have no idea how annoying their displaying of it can be to the irreligious!

        • L January 21, 2020 at 7:08 pm

          Amen! 🙂 (and I mean that in a totally non-religious way)

      • Rae January 21, 2020 at 9:11 pm Reply

        HOLY Martin Luther King, so disrespectful and especially of such an evocative, heartfelt description.

        • L January 21, 2020 at 9:33 pm

          No disrespect. This is not a religious forum. And I have been on here contributing, trying to help people through this nightmare for years. Interesting I only see your name pop up now. Think I’ll take a break for a while….

        • L January 21, 2020 at 10:03 pm

          One last thing to get off my chest and then I will go. This is an explanation of why I do not like to see religious comments on a site like this….a site that is an exchange of information how to heal from this travesty, for people of ALL beliefs.

          I am sick to death of so much fake religiosity in this country. We have fake evangelicals supporting a president who is as corrupt as they come and guilty of every of of the deadly sins (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride.) And more.

          We have megachurches and televangelists with mansions and yachts while there are so many starving and poor and homeless.

          We have rampant pedophilia in the Catholic Church, covered up over and over again over the decades.

          We have those holier-than-thou fighting viciously to overturn Roe V Wade (which would only effect the poor, who would go back to using hangers or other shady means). All to protect something that is incapable of living on its own. But once a baby is born…forget it. They don’t want to help care for it, feed it, make sure it is housed or educated.

          And all of this. ALL of it is based on a book of fables, written over many generations by many different people. Parables, not real events. And these holy rollers pick and choose from it like it was a menu. (Where did Cain’s wife come from? Do you really need to put someone to death for working on the sabbath? Do you need to stone someone who plants crops side by side?)

          There is just SO much hypocrisy. I did not ask you to not believe the way you do. I only asked that it not be a part of this site. (And praise “god” all you want. Hey, why don’t you ask him to cure everyone on floxie hope?) And hey, if it was all “thanks be to God” why are you even here? You apparently don’t need our help. And now I am done. I will take a much needed break. Doing these posts, trying to help others, has probably not been great for my own health.

        • sheila January 21, 2020 at 11:31 pm

          Yayayaay L you said it great thank you I feel exactly the same way you voiced almost all the things I feel again thank you.

        • Sheila January 21, 2020 at 10:05 pm

          ok so here’s my experience and why religion should not be on the forum in any way except if someone wants to say that’s what got them through their issues, but that was not what was done. I was born with a birth defect in one of my legs it caused excessive veins and arteries, caused over 30 surgeries before I was 12 years old – ask me how many times I was literally told by “well meaning” people that I had NOT prayed hard enough or my leg would have been healed and even the new age people have been known to say “wow you must have some really bad karma to work out”. How hideous. So the reason to not have people telling others that all they need to do is pray is because it indicates that it’s partly the ill person’s fault that they are still sick and unhealthy. No one I am sure has any trouble with hearing that prayer got someone through their personal trials as long as it’s their story, but when it’s taken to the next level of telling people that’s what they need to do to get healed that’s when it becomes a problem. Ask me how horrible I felt being told I had not prayed hard enough, that I had not believed deep enough etc. etc. but hearing someone say “my faith got me through my illness” now that’s not a problem at least not to me. Re-read the post to see where this crossed the line of it being a personal story to being religion pushed on others.
          Sorry L if I overstepped but dang…..

        • L January 21, 2020 at 10:51 pm

          that’s horrible. I am SOOOO sorry you had to go through all that. Just unforgiveable. (I’d post a heart icon here were I able)

        • sheila January 21, 2020 at 11:32 pm

          awww thank you L. ❤ it's a heart sorta 🙂

        • L January 22, 2020 at 12:06 am

          hey, how did you do that? I didn’t know you could post icons. anyhow, I heart you right back!!!

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 4:13 am

          Discovering how many of you DON’T believe in a god (me,included ;-)) one might wonder if there’s a bit of truth in us,having “bad karma” ;-)) Just kidding.Start a discussion about religion and you’ll see emotions heat up,quick,which might,in time,end up with a war.Please,respect other’s religious feelings,as long as they don’t try to push their religion on you.

          Terry obviously had mental help in her religious feelings,like many other religious people do.And there is,in fact,scientific proof that strong religious believes help stimulate the immune system.We,believers and non-believers,have a part of our brain that’s,for a reason,called the “religious area”.When in a state of strong religious fellings,this brain area becomes very active.This isn’t just proof that religion isn’t just something that has roots in ancient times and is with us since the bigger part of human excistance,but it also suggests that this part,and it’s reactions on religious feelings might indeed aid in recovery from health damage.

          Why should we be allowed to advice other floxies on usage of magnesium,Zinc,infrared light etc.while not allowing Terri to tell us that her religious feelings helped her? Things like homeopathy and other remedies,and the placebo effect itself, that were mentioned,here,might as well work only for them who “believe”.

          And don’t point your finger to the bad and evil christians while (visciously!) attacking a religious person;those evil ones are a minority,and most religious people are good human beings!Just like NOT ALL doctors are “Poison Pill Pushers”.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:13 pm

          I typed a < and then hit the 3 without any spaces ❤ and then the smiley was a semi colon : and then a ) shift zero parenthesis 🙂 years ago there was a list of how to type all sorts of things from yahoo you can even use the keyboard to make cat and dog faces 🙂

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:03 am Reply

        I don’t agree; there’s proof that a strong religious believe,just like a strong believe of the ability of the human body to heal itself,can stimulate the immune system.sometimes it’s called “placebo reaction,sometimes it’s called “the healing power of homeopathy” but the fact is: it’s there,and iot helps some people.And although I’m not a (convinced) christian anymore (I’m,what you could describe as a pantheïstic gnost),I would never deny others their right to expose their trust in religion.

        • Sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:02 pm

          no one is saying that someone’s personal belief doesn’t help THEM, it does – state of mind is very healing but the post was pushing prayers on people asking people to put their trust in god cause it worked for them – that’s what is unacceptable. It’s perfect for anyone to have a great mindset because of their beliefs but asking the rest of us to accept their god or any god and trust that we will be healed is unacceptable especially to those of us who may not believe in that very god or any at all.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 12:08 pm

          Like it is unacceptable to advice people to use magnesium,while they don’t believe in the power of supplements?

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:15 pm

          No henk there is science to back up using supplements, food as a healing source, science supersedes faith which is literally a belief with no science to back it up there is a huge difference please don’t confuse the two.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 12:28 pm

          There,in fact,IS research,done on the influence of religious feelings and trust on our immune system,and the outcome was a positive one.So;the science is there.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 12:38 pm

          dang again you repeat what I said – state of mind is healing yes science says that, a person’s belief is their state of mind you cannot however say that because their belief in something or someone that caused their healing is proof that that something or someone exists – it’s solely their belief in “something” that releases the healing it’s not the thing they believe in that does it – so no there is NO science proving god exists none – science to prove if we believe hard enough in something it could be belief that sitting in my bmw will heal me it will release those healing factors I just have to believe in something to the degree that my brain releases bodily healing. But that would not prove that BMW is god would it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:44 pm

          Sheila,where did I write that there’s scientific proof for god? I didn’t!

          And I didn’t repeat you,but what’s on the Wiki page I linked:NO vit.B12 in the soil,only the bacteria that live in the soil and on certain plants,and produce B12 IN THE GUTS of herbivores like cows and goats.They do produce B12 in human guts as well,but too late,because by then they passed the stomach and upper part of the intestines,where most vitamines and part of the minerals are absorbed.
          Please,do read whatever I write,more carefully before you accuse me of plagiatizing you.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 3:36 pm

          ok I’m dropping this one cause everything I am trying to get across is getting screwed up so done

        • Nicole January 22, 2020 at 1:50 pm

          I have been watching this post and will try to make it very simple. I have had almost every horrible symptom from FQ’s you can have. I have spent over 40 thousand on supplements, naturopath, physical therapist, and a psychiatrist. Can’t tell you if I would be worse without them but in the four years since I was floxed I am still living in a lot of pain and like most of us I have just wanted to die at times and none of these people have done anything to change that.
          Now I am not going to make a religious rant about any religion as really don’t do organized religion anyway. But I do have faith in God and God has nothing to do with all the things mentioned about the different religions. The bag things that are done are by humans not God. They may do it in his name but he did not rape children or make wealth off televised religious programs.
          So before we all get in stupid back and forth posts because a nice lady said God got her through let’s just take a minute to think.
          Yes you can see science but aren’t FQ’s a product of science and we all know where that got us.
          So as I said, all the money I have spent on the science hasn’t done that much but my faith in God has kept me going on days when I wanted to just end it. And you know, he didn’t charge me a dime.
          Now if I said I ate dirt and was healed you all would want to know where I got my dirt. So why is there sure a uproar about someone saying God is what has got them through. The thought is free and if it’s not in your belief why even make a comment. It’s not hurting you, it can’t, because you don’t believe.
          Just my two cents that’s probably worth nothing.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:10 pm

          “Just my two cents that’s probably worth nothing.”

          Well;it is! To Terri,and to me (a pantheistic gnost) as well.What those commentors don’t understand is,that they,like religious people,have the same “religious brain area),and that they just gave proof that theirs work as well.The way they defend their non-religious view is comparable to the way religious fanatics defend their view.

          The real danger in evolution is,that we gained intelligence but,in the process,forgot that we still have those,fully working and active ancient reactions and drives.Look around;proof is all over the place! Civilisation is just a thin layer,wrapped around an ancient being.So:please;try not to hurt each other,or other animals!

    • Rae January 21, 2020 at 8:30 pm Reply

      Terri dear, you have been horribly mistreated but you are a strong, vibrant woman. Don’t listen to anyone who pulls you down. You will overcome!

  25. joanneg January 21, 2020 at 4:17 pm Reply

    I like hearing about God!
    He’s the ultimate source of “Hope”

    • L January 21, 2020 at 5:11 pm Reply

      I suppose, if you believe in that sort of thing. But one’s religious beliefs I think are better kept private. (And it always fascinates me that people will praise “God” for healing, but somehow he/she/it doesn’t factor in to the original demise…..

      • sheila January 21, 2020 at 5:54 pm Reply

        Perfect L, perfect……. and yes each person’s beliefs or non belief should not enter into a public forum even though it might be great to hear that someone can say they feel that it helped them that doesn’t mean that same thing works for the next person for me I don’t need someone else sending god’s wishes to me, for me, maybe I don’t want it, maybe I don’t believe and how is it justified that you get this illness or sickness and not get angry at the same entity for allowing the illness but get hung up that when things go well it must this or that…….thank you for encouraging us to keep that part of who we are to ourselves.

        • Don M January 22, 2020 at 2:22 am

          My opinion…………… This forum was established to encourage the floxed to share what might help others. I think it should be kept in that vein. Let’s not be straying into personal beliefs etc.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 3:24 am Reply

        L.,you might want to read some of the books,witten by Ervin Laszlo.He connects (quantum) science with religion.Not the (extremely) naïve religions (jewish,christian and islamic;those are designed with manipulation of human “herds” in mind),but the one you can find in the old veda’s.Laszlo’s book s are among the most interesting books I ever read.

        And there are two books (may be hard to find),written by Dr.Iqbal Taimni,showing an other view on “existence” than the western biblical one,and based on the Yoga-Sutra’s (Patanjali) and other ancient knowledge.Those books might “enlighten” you a bit :-))

        • Andrea S. January 22, 2020 at 10:20 am

          I know religion is such a difficult topic. I am what is known as a private believer in my higher power. God or whatever the name is. However I prefer to keep my relationships private. I don’t inflict any uncomfortable public display of affection with my hubby, and I feel my relationship with my higher power is also a very private one. I know how mentioning of the big guy is an uncomfortable and often unpleasant topic for many therefore I don’t do it. Imagine having a very dear friend that your other friends know but don’t like. And if I tried to talk my friends into liking or wanting to be around that person in nauseam. What good would it do unless they wanted to be friends with that person?

          My point though is I understand all points of view. I have been through some of the worst times (won’t discuss it here) and faced with unimaginable pain. For myself despite what I have witnessed and experienced I find a sense of comfort that there is more out there. We can even remove the whole religion from it and just call it a higher being, something bigger. I don’t blame this higher being for what I have experienced in life.

          At any rate just wanted to say I think you all are great people and I am so sorry for all the suffering you all have gone through. I’ve read all your stories. Terrie please do stay and share your thoughts here about your floxie experience. If you believe that God has healed you continue to. Just be mindful that many others don’t share the same experience and they have had tremendous suffering and pain and talking about things that are painful for them only make things worse. Stress really worsens all the symptoms and weakens the immune system. Therefore it best just to stick to the health aspect of it.

        • L January 22, 2020 at 10:55 am

          I believe as you do. On all counts.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 3:25 pm

          Jehova’s once asked me what my religion was,after I told them that the Roman chuch lost me when I was about 16 years old.I didnt like the way thet tried to push their religion on me,but I treated them in a respectfull way.So,I explained them my way of religion:

          The Cosmos is my church.

          My heart is my bible.

          My (way of) living is my prayer.

          First,they were speachless,and than they expressed their admiration on my religious view.No hard words from both sides.And that’s the way it should be.

          What annoyed me so much was the aggressive reaction on the posting from Terri.Why so viscious? After all misery,this woman went through,and the help she experienced out of her religious faith? Am I allowed to advice homeopathy (according to many,me included,to be “religious” ) ,but not a faith in God,while that is proven to work for many people (yes;since scientifically researched, it is a proven fact).I,myself,keep my religion ot of discussions ( trying to explain what a pantheïstic gnost is,is not that easy).But I do respect the so easily to hurt religious feelings of other people,and I think that the way some floxies reacted on her is a disgrace for the FloxieHope community. People come here to get hope,not to have it taken away by some “anti-christs”.

          What amazed me (but it shouldn’t have) is the strong reaction;comparable to that of religioud fanatics.Which,in fact,proves that atheïsm is,in fact just another religion :-))

          I’d like to stop this absurd discussion,now;it’s useless.Only wanted Terri to know that not everybody on FH is a fanatic anti-religious person with a lack of respect for the religious feelings of others,and a lack of empathy,as well.I hope that her religion gives her the power to forgive them,and their senseless reaction;it doesn’t help her (Terri) ,and what good does it do for them,theirselves?

          Thanks,for giving Terri some much needed support;that’s why she came here,in the first place.She had a very rough time and probably still has her bad moments,like all of us.Let’s be gentle to her,and to each other;that’s what ALL OF US need!

          I wish you the best,Andrea!

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 3:54 pm

          TERRI – I also used prednisone and feel that that was one of the last things that my cipro riddled body just couldn’t take between all the antibiotics I had to take for a serious sinus infection was just the last straw after 3 years of cipro. The floaters in my eyes are crazy, I am an artist and I have had to give it up for right now till the floaters reduce in mass and frequency – I have read here that floaters eventually do fade and mine are beginning to fade after a year and half of not being able to paint I can now paint for a few hours each day. Before… I used to have to literally shake my head side to side to clear my eyes enough to see what I was working on. My joints are achy all the time. I was active and going to the gym every day for a 3-4 hour work out but then poof now I do good to get in the car to go get groceries I feel for your lack of ability I too am in mid 50’s yet feel like I am 80+ until cipro floxing I looked and felt like I was in my mid 30’s but now dang I look old and feel old; I am also disabled I am a leg amputee and it was difficult enough before cipro poisoning to spend life on crutches but now being floxed it’s impossible to imagine the rest of my life like this, the fatigue is the worst for me right now and the insomnia is unbearable. I sincerely hope that you continue to feel improvement like so many here have said they have had……. it’s a journey that each of us has to complete

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 4:07 pm

          Sheila,floaters do fade… and come back.Part of the fading is,in fact,your brain,”filtering out” the floaters.I’ve had floaters from right after an AB course in 2004 (Metronidazole and Amoxicillin,combined),and since than,sometimes they’re gone,sometimes they’re back.There are transparant and black ones,in my eyes,the black ones being little traces of blood.To my luck,most of them are of the transparant kind.Most of them were gone,untill I got floxed.Other symptoms from that first AB course were (almost) gone,as well,untill Cipro made them come back,accompanied by other severe symptoms.I hope you,and Terri are more lucky than I am,untill now.I really do!

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 7:04 pm

          my floaters are all black it’s like looking through aquarium charcoal floating around there is very little clear area I have not had the white/transparent ones, my eye surgeon stated that the vitreous in the eyeball will move the tissue to the back of the eye or out of range of sight he said they will be there but hopefully once they move to those outer areas they will stay there for a long time. The only way to remove them is to remove the vitreous fluid in the eye and replace it which is a dangerous and last resort move. Shaking my head seems to start the fluid to moving and it’s like watching black threads swimming in front of my eyes

        • L January 22, 2020 at 7:40 pm

          yeah, like all other connective tissue, the vitreous is also a victim of the fluoroquinolones.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 1:09 am

          Yes;what he tells you is true: the black floaters in my eyes did disappear.(from view).The few black ones I sometimes see are just little balck dots,and I even doubt if those are floaters.Since being floxed,I see light flashes,sometimes (small points;I only see a little bright flash,and than it’s gone.),and those black “points” might be the counterparts of the flashes.They come and disappear in a fraction of a second Probably damaged nerves.

          The bright floaters I have now also come and go.Sometimes they’re all over my view,but there are times when there are just a few,and hardly noticable.It’s got to do with the conditions in my eye fluid,I guess.

        • sheila January 23, 2020 at 9:17 pm

          what my eye surgeon said was if I remember correctly – I had the black floaters those are the most normal kind my mom had the bright reflective ones and those are actual tissue that has broken loose not floaters, floaters are apparently not actual tissue from the eye, my mom suffered with those bright ones for months and then they were gone. I have had one reflective one that I had to go in for and he told me it was tissue that was stuck and it would eventually let go and not to get worried when it did cause it would be right there where I could see it and he was right it took a few days but it did break away and disappear. The black floaters will not be absorbed by the body they will always be there and again they are the most normal and abundant ones. At least this surgeon is aware and worried about the cipro poisoning so for that I am thankful.

        • Andrea S. January 22, 2020 at 4:58 pm

          Hey everyone so I just wanted to give a small update. I initially posted a little over a month ago regarding my unfortunate self medicating of Cipro (did not know the warning had an older bottle here) and what’s happened since then. I took somewhere in the ballpark of 6 or so 500mg pills split in halves stretched out over weeks. Anyhow I did develop tinitus which is ongoing but I can live with it as long as it does not worsen. I also have plantar issues on the right foot at times. Never had that before I also feel a lot of anxiety. However I am going through the lovely hormonal change of life.

          Anyhow I mentioned to you all that I had a UTI which prompted me to take the cipro in the first place. Thanks to you all I got Mannose and Cranberry and it seems to clear the urine. But another ongoing issue prior to the cipro was a tooth ache. I have had two root canals and still in dental pain. So I think I will have those teeth removed.

          Question: For those of you who had removal and or implants did your surgeon place you on antibiotics or steroids? For obvious reasons I will never touch the steroid but as for the antibiotic clearly it outweighs a jaw infection. What type of antibiotic if any were you placed on? I’ve not made the appt yet or gotten that far but I feel this is the direction I will be going.
          Thanks for your input.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 12:58 am

          Andrea,I had a few teeth and molars taken out but never got an AB for that.I guess,because there seems to be no need for it.Never got an infection,despite the fact that there was one under a few molars that made it neccesary to take them out.All caused by 15 years of taking a PPI (which,among lots of other health problems,ruined my teeth),and an idiotic dental hygienist;the one who also prescribed me the totaly insane antibiotics course that started my problems,in 2004.

          She made more than one mistake,and more or less finished the job that my (then) doctor had started by prescribing the Losec ((adviced for max 3 months) for chronic acid reflux.He really pushed it on me and the only reason I could think of,years later,and in deep trouble,was the extra bonus it brought him.Looking back I can hardly find any case where any of the “medics” (doctors,dentists) did a good job and really helped me;most of the time they where too busy helping hemselves,I guess.

        • Andrea S. January 23, 2020 at 9:17 am

          Henk thank you or sharing. Sorry you had to go through some tooth issues as well. I really am in agreement with much of what you said, doctors pushing their own agenda. With the implants and crowns that go on them, or of course a flipper fake tooth there is no more real maintenance or need for the doctors as the tooth is pretty self sufficient if you care for your mouth and gums and health properly. No more money for them in terms of fillings etc. I sure hope I can get to the bottom of this tooth pain. It’s overriding just about everything else right now.

    • L January 22, 2020 at 1:00 pm Reply

      Sheila. There are a few on here whose need to be right surpasses everything. What you said on both topics makes perfect sense but it is falling on deaf ears.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 1:08 pm Reply

        L.sorry for my deaf ears !

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 1:46 pm Reply

        “Sheila. There are a few on here whose need to be right surpasses everything.”

        I agree with you on this one,L.;-))

      • sheila January 22, 2020 at 2:26 pm Reply

        Yea I can see that but dang who knew it would be so hard to just state something…..I only get involved when I think it’s a serious topic and I have something to add……. maybe I should stop reading hahahaha or worse maybe stop thinking I have something worth reading……..oh well it was worth a try XD let’s see if the x d works

        • L January 22, 2020 at 6:14 pm

          can’t find your comment re floaters but I had them BAD. REALLY bad. In fact it was my first side effect and I raced to the doctor fearing I had detached retina. It was like (as a fellow floxie told me) looking through eggdrop soup. It obliterated my vision. IF I looked at a wall or the floor they would be covered in thousands of black spots and swirls. I could not look at anything without seeing it just obliterated by these little black and grey marks. Sometimes I would just have to shut my eyes, because it was so disturbing. One thing that I believe really helped was using CanC or Vision Clarity eyedrops. I used them “religiously” every day twice a day for more than a year, then once a day after that. The drops are mostly for cataracts but I had read they can also help with floaters. (There was no way to “not pay attention to them” or “get used to them.”) I am 5 years out and only have a few wispy ones and occassional black dot one….but overall, they have NOT come back, other than the occasional one that pretty much everyone gets.

        • sheila January 22, 2020 at 6:54 pm

          OMG floaters were horrible I was like you I couldn’t see it was so hard to concentrate on anything. My eye doctor is keeping a check on my retinas after telling him about the cipro poisoning he was super concerned and did a longer exam last month and wrote it in my chart and told me to not hesitate to get in asap should I see something other than floaters. I now have fewer floaters but some days are worse than others. I can at least paint some again now. I will ask him about the eye drops, thanks I remembered you said that a while back but couldn’t remember the name of the drops.

        • L January 22, 2020 at 7:37 pm

          I have also had several scary “light shows” and was diagnosed with macular degeneration within weeks of the floxing. I know it was the cipro because I had had an exam with photos just 3 weeks before the cipro. But the “specialist ” I saw kept saying “oh, couldn’t be the cipro.” Of course he also uses cipro eye drops all the time. (no longer see him.) And I also had a weird thing where I was seeing something different out of each eye. Our brains automatically meld the two things so we are never aware of it. IT was SO disturbing. It eventually righted itself. I am in the performing arts, so I was wondering if I could ever do that again…especially with the stage lights. my eyes are still very sensitive to light from the sun and florescent lights. As for the drops, you know most allopaths are so resistant to anything natural, but I was kind of surprised that even the nayser I mentioned earlier said ‘yeah, that’s fine.”

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 1:29 am

          L.,you wrote several times that it wasn’t double vision but the way you just described it is,what I call,double vision.You’re right;the “picture” of both eyes reach your brain seperately and than are combined to one (3D) picture.When the brain doesn’t succeed in mixing both,you see two seperate pictures,projected in an over-lapping way,like two photo positives (or negativs) of the same subject,put on each other,but not exactly “in line”.

          So,what you describe as “someting different” with each eye is in fact;two pictures,from both eyes,badly layered together by the brain? Well,that’s what I called “double vision”,all the time.In fact it’doesn’t matter if the eyes point to a slightly different direction (the usual double vision,mostly seen in babies and young children),or,that the brain fails to put them together the right way;what you “see” is the same;a double vision.And this,and all the other vision problems (floaters,extreme light sensitivity,light shows etc.) are definately caused by Cipro and other FQ’s.

        • L January 23, 2020 at 11:07 am

          Double vision – also called diplopia – will make you see two separate images of a SINGLE object. This can be one on top of another or side by side. A friend had double vision after a ski accident and she said she saw “two” of everything, with a little overlap. What I saw was something different out of each eye, not a single image duplicated. Like if you were looking straight ahead and to your right was a light switch and to your left was a door…I would see the door out of the left eye and the switch out of the right, instead on taking in the entire picture at once. Here is an example of double vision (and again, it could appear horizontally as well. This is not what I saw. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=double+vision&t=ffhp&atb=v1-1&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fiytmed.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2F0_double-vision.jpg

  26. Dee January 22, 2020 at 10:01 am Reply

    Henk sorry it took awhile to get back as I was away on a trip. Thank you for info on nummular eczema. I had read up on it myself. Unfortunately I guess it can take months or even a year to get better and according to what I read and my Derma strong steroid cream seems to be the most effective to heal the sores. I am obviously not a fan of using strong steroid creme BUT my sores were getting worse and I don’t want them to get infected either. I have tried every natural approach suggested the past few weeks and things just got worse. I finally went to the store and bought hydrocortisone creme which is the mildest steroid creme. I have used it for a week and the sores are slowly getting better. The worst part I’m dealing with is the itching!! I wish that would calm down more! I’m hoping if I use this mild steroid creme for awhile that it will take care of this rash. I’m aware it may flare again but for now I need to get the sores healed and itching under control. Hopefully I won’t have to use any stronger steroid creme!!

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 10:38 am Reply

      I fully respect your choice;I think it was a hard one,I guess.I really hope it works,without adverse reactions that could complicate your condition.I know;the itching is life-disturbing.I have the “Managers Disease” ,and I spend quite a lot of time and energy,scratching my head and face.Would rather have a “Manager’s Salary”,without all that discomfort ;-))

  27. Dee January 22, 2020 at 10:11 am Reply

    Rae. Tell me more about the Listerine?? Did it help your sores heal? Did it help the itching?? Thanks for your suggestion. Just wanting to know how much it helped you??

    • Rae January 22, 2020 at 11:25 am Reply

      Listerine has been VERY HELPFUL for shingles

      “We suspect that the benefits may be due in part to the activity of menthol, thymol and eucalyptol on transient receptor potential (TRP) channels in nerves (Caceres et al, British Journal of Pharmacology, May 2017). Menthol, thymol and similar compounds that activate TRP channels seem to have local anesthetic effects (Kawasaki et al, Life Sciences, March 14, 2013). Methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen), another component of Listerine, also has significant anti-inflammatory effects (Li et al, Molecules, Nov. 23, 2016).”

      Peoples’s Pharmacy

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 12:05 pm Reply

        Tea Tee oil does this,as well.

        • Rae January 22, 2020 at 12:57 pm

          I tried tea tree oil for a long time, and it did not work for me.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 1:06 pm

          Tea Tree oil has many uses but still is not a miracle plant.It is my first aid kit,when I’m home or on a voyage.

        • Rae January 22, 2020 at 12:58 pm

          I tried tea tree oil for a long time but it did not work for me.

        • Rae January 22, 2020 at 1:00 pm

          Sorry if this is a double post because my reply did not appear.

          The tea tree oil did not work for me.

  28. Dee January 22, 2020 at 10:24 am Reply

    Don. What is Niacinamid?? You thought it might help my skin problems??

    • Don M January 22, 2020 at 11:04 am Reply

      Dee….Google Niacinamid. It would be much better than me trying to explain it here.

  29. Andrea January 22, 2020 at 2:17 pm Reply

    To A. Coleman,
    I’ve read your post about nutrition very carefully, and even if I’m more inclined to think that humans should be eating MOSTLY a plant based diet, I don’t necesserly look down on other’s people opinion. I’ve read you have a PhD in Biological Anthropology, and that’s very interesting, so I want to aks you, in your opinion, what would be the ideal diet for a man today?

    • Andrea January 22, 2020 at 2:24 pm Reply

      Sorry, I just read in the other post that you follow a paleo diet. Thanks anyway 🙂

      • A.Coleman January 24, 2020 at 10:43 am Reply


        I have been paleo for about 18 months now. My wife and I both follow that approach to eating. We do allow for one day a week “cheats” mostly so we can go out to a restaurant or visit a friend’s house. Even then we try to eat paleo; but know we may get non-paleo oil or a bit of refined sugar.

        I don’t do many paleo cheats – i.e. I don’t make cookies or breads with paleo flour. We do eat potatoes in moderation, which some paleo diet followers don’t eat.

        While I don’t practice it because I’m just not disciplined enough; I think that eating paleo while limiting meat to 1/4 of the total food weight you consume would be the way to go. So if you eat a 4 ounce chicken breast you need 12 ounces of veggies; that’s lots of lettuce.

        Early hominids probably did very much eat feast or famine in regards to meat and fats (bone marrow). Likely certain times of the year there was quite a bit of meat and fat in their diets but other times they might go for weeks at a time with no meat. This was the predominate hominid diet for about 2 million years up until around 150,000 years ago.

        As I originally posted the invention of agriculture only started around 10,000 years ago and in many parts of the world more like 2,000 years ago. In evolutionary history that is a blip and our diets are still much more in tune to that 2 million year period of human pre-history than to the last 10,000 when grains started become the focus of our diet.

        • Andrea January 24, 2020 at 11:11 am

          Thank you

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 22, 2020 at 2:30 pm Reply

      Andrea,the answer is yes.According to Dr.Mercola,untill recently a strict vegetarian,(most?) people need small amounts of meat.Just like when I was young;once a week,Sometimes a bit of fish,and eggs or mushrooms for the other days.Or beans.But I don’t like beans,and my friends and family don’t like me,after I ate beans ;-))

      • Andrea January 22, 2020 at 4:53 pm Reply

        Henk, I really don’t understand the reason of your post, I didn’t want to know Dr Mercola take on diet…my question was directed to A. Coleman and one of hi last posts, expecially because he has a PhD in Biological Anthropology, as I mentioned before…

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 12:37 am

          And? Other opinions not allowed?I really don’t understand the reason of your post,Or do I?

  30. Don M January 22, 2020 at 5:08 pm Reply

    A few posts back I made a comment about staying on subject with this web site. It was originated by Lisa so that floxies could exchange information about what helped and didn’t help them. Lets stop the idle banter and get back to why this site is here. Lets stay on subject. OK?

    • Andrea January 22, 2020 at 5:19 pm Reply

      What do you mean? Who posted the idle banter and what’s the “subject”?

      • Don M January 22, 2020 at 6:06 pm Reply

        Andrea…… The subject is what helps or hurts a floxie. It is not back and forth about personal feelings and unrelated banter. I am not going to play tit for tat with you. I commented about what I am reading. OK?

        • Andrea January 22, 2020 at 9:21 pm

          Playing tit for tat with you? Whatever…

      • Sheila January 22, 2020 at 7:00 pm Reply

        I assume it’s the topics about religion and/or vegan eating, that are over now.

        as for the dentist – I haven’t had any tooth removal but I have had a lot of crowns due to cracked teeth I think now in hindsight that my teeth have gotten more brittle from the cipro and it was easy for me to crack them in my sleep; I have not had to be pre-medicated. Now my mom has also been floxed and she did recently have a removal and she didn’t even bleed it was amazing. No pre-meds for her either. Talk to your dentist about your concerns and ask about a mouthwash called peridex I believe is the name – I used it regularly morning and night and it helped me during all the crowns to reduce bleeding and issues. I hope that helps

    • A.Coleman January 24, 2020 at 10:59 am Reply


      I kind of get your post as it relates to the religious discussion recently (I have a personal opinion; but try to leave religion and politics out of my Floxie Hope posts); but the dietary questions regarding veganism, modern diets, paleo diets, keto diets are VERY IMPORTANT to floxies.

      Food is THE BEST source of all the nutrients that are so desperately needed by floxies. We all search for supplements that will help us heal and we probably all need them; but we also need to eat healthy and eat diets that are best designed to help us recover. Nearly all the supplements we try are based on foods; just concentrated.

      If some people think eating a vegetarian diet is what works and want to discuss the merits and limitations of that diet as compared to eating some meat that is very much a topic that should be discussed on this site.

      When I was first floxed I had been eating a “typical” western diet. Lots of processed foods and far too much wheat, rice, sugar, etc. I had massive digestive problems as part of being floxed. I struggled to heal for two years while supplementing and continuing to eat pretty much the same diet; just from organic sources. And what very much helped in my healing was switching to a paleo diet!

      Maybe that isn’t the required approach for everyone; but better understanding of the various nutritional impacts of different diets is very important to floxies.

      I do agree that sometimes people let personal preferences interfere with their posts; and maybe that is part of what I am doing here; but we are people and we are people dealing with lots of other stresses (FQ poisoning) in addition to “normal” interactions on a discussion board. I can overlook the odd banter back and forth that may not be strictly on target if the broader subject is germane to healing.

      Having said that, I appreciate you trying to keep us on target; I just hope that you realize conversations around diet are very much “on subject”

      • sheila January 24, 2020 at 12:18 pm Reply

        I was vegetarian for over 22 years, I currently eat some meat from animals, I am trying to move towards 95% vegan for my health. I will try to keep this to my experience – eating vegetarian also keeps a lot of fats in the diet with the ability to eat cheeses, dairy and eggs, so for me keeping my weight in check which definitely helps the joints regardless of being floxed but especially being floxed joint pain is a reality, so keeping weight down is a positive I think. But vegetarian keeps unhealthy fats in the diet and keeps cholesterol in the diet especially with the consumption of organ meats and eggs. The vegan diet removes all animal products which immediately results in weight loss and an adjustment to the gut; it should be done slowly and smartly. If you don’t have time to know the in’s and outs of eating vegan and what that entails then don’t do it – unless your principles are animal based such as saving animal lives and the planet. Which is my conundrum – I am in animal advocacy, Rottweiler rescue, etc. so consuming animals in any form goes against my principles which puts stress on me emotionally every time I eat any animal product and we know stress also exacerbates being floxed, sadly as a vegetarian I used to be very content knowing I was not causing animal deaths with my eating habits but then I researched the dairy and egg industry and learned more animals die for the dairy/egg products than the meat products and for me that just threw me into a tailspin of what to do to stay emotionally sound with my eating versus my animal advocacy – I mean I should walk my talk with the animals, I can’t say I love them and protect while I eat them. So I am struggling daily with my own emotional punishment over my eating choices and yet I more or less understand what I need to do. With the vegetarian diet I didn’t worry about any nutrients or lack of, with vegan eating one needs to be aware of their B12 levels usually that’s the only vitamin level that dips yet in some people it doesn’t – so I have come to the conclusion that the best way for me to figure out what is healthiest for me would be to have bloodwork done while eating meat from animals; then remove the meat and eat vegetarian no meat – only the dairy, eggs and cheeses – do that for 45 days then have another blood test done; then eat vegan removing ALL animal products – for the next 45 days and have the last bloodwork done, get all 3 blood-works printed out and sit and compare them to see what seems to be the healthiest for me. I think that’s the only way to figure it out since each person is different, each person will have a different reaction to removing or adding food products, each person’s gut is different and processes nutrients differently and the only way to know what our own body needs is to see that in black and white. At the same time have the vitamin/mineral tests done to so as to know what is lacking on that end, between these one can and should have enough information to make proper eating choices to encourage body health.
        I happen to eat chocolate all the time, my sugar intake daily consists of apple juice 3-4 times a day, truffles and ice cream at night, whether it’s vegan ice cream or dairy ice cream, I love chocolate and I have found a GREAT vegan replacement with SO Delicious Dark Chocolate Truffle ice cream oh my yummy but very, very, pricey, but each day I eat lindor truffles and most nights I have a dish of chocolate ice cream, also there are hidden sugars in some processed foods so I am getting a lot of sugar and I do not feel any difference when I reduce that sugar intake however, I do feel a change when I remove unhealthy fats which are also included in dairy ice cream, I also do better when I eat small grazing type meals throughout the day instead of set meals 3 times a day – I hate 3 meals a day, I prefer to just munch my way through the day and when I do that I lose weight and feel a lot better, and actually eat less chocolate when I graze, for me consistent fuel is key apparently, however my husband does better with set meals and on the weekends we usually only get one large meal each day, so I am screwed no matter which way I go with my eating choices. The struggle is real with me and I hope my experience and suggestions help you in your future choices. 🙂 I think I’ll go have a lindor truffle all this typing has made me chocolate deprived, 🙂

      • L January 24, 2020 at 12:35 pm Reply

        Totally agree…most of what we need we should be getting from our food sources, with supplements being only “add ons” where we are deficient. We all need selenium, which helps to offset fluoride among other things, but rather than take a supplement, we can get that from a couple brazil nuts everyday. Sure, there are going to be things like magnesium which we all likely need to supplement, but …food first! And congrats on the changes you made.

  31. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 2:41 am Reply
    • Andrea S. January 23, 2020 at 9:31 am Reply

      I saw an article he other day on “forever chemicals” in the US water supplies. They call them PFAS Perfluorooctanoic acid (flouride atoms of course at much scarier levels). They are forever as they build up and remain in the body. They say 99% of people have these in their systems at least here in the states. I always knew the drinking water was risky however after this article my husband is ordering a reverse osmosis under the sink water purifier. Reverse Osmosis and distilation are to date the best weapons for removing these substances. This would mean no consumption of any restaurant beverage or any juice or drink from a store unless it’s been made with distilled water. They also say this is in milk and just about every other drinkable item.


      • Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 10:56 am Reply

        That’s right,Andrea;Fluoride,and all of the things and substances containing this poison are a global problam.Here,they had to stop building houses because the soil in many places is contaminated with PFAS>because of the need for houses,the “safe”level is changed upwards,to make building new homes possible.Part of the contamination is caused by Dupont,who made basic fluoride substances here.There’s a docu,telling the whole story;might I find it back,then I will place a link,here.

  32. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 2:55 am Reply

    Very interesting article about light stimulation with Near Infrared therapy “up the nose”. Yes,really;one of the effective methods to fight Alzheimer is,putting N-IR 810 nm leds in/up the nose! I guess my new IR bulb is a bit too big for the job.As is your panel,Don ;-))


  33. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 2:57 am Reply

    There’s currently a trial with one of the named devices in the article(Neuro RX Gamma),going on:


  34. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 3:31 am Reply

    And here you can buy the hardware:


    I want twó of those nose-clips,ánd the headlights.That combination will scare the hell out of anybody,daring to ring at my door after dark :-))

    Well,kidding,of course;but when this technice works,I’d sure like to have the set,and give it a try.For now,I stick to my Sota Bio Tuner (formerly called: Braintuner),which does about the same by electro-stimulation. And,like with the Neuro RX Gamma,the effect declines in a few days,after stopping the treatment.Daily us is a must,for a permanent effect.

  35. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 3:39 am Reply

    And there’s the video.Lights out,please ;-))

  36. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 3:43 am Reply

    And even a MIT video!

  37. Henk Noordhuizen January 23, 2020 at 4:02 am Reply

    And a more recent and updatet one:

    How could we have ever survived without these devices.Or;ain’t it better to search for the cause of Alzheimers,and ways to prevent it? Like;never drinking fluoridated water or use fluoridated “medicines”? Or over-heat our anti-stick frying pans?

    But,to be honest;those devices are pure fun,although heavily overpriced. Bob Beck would (let you) make one for $ 30-40 (it’s,in fact,just a timer.to generate the Gamma mode (40 Hz),and a few leds..Beck’s device would let you chose Alfa,Beta,Theta ánd Gamma mode,produced by his friend from Sota,for 10-20 % of the price you pay for the Neuro RX Gamma.

    Maybe I’ll modify my Novag Mind Activator (model:Holiday).Some N-IR leds in the headphone.and dismantle the eyeglasses,to put the red leds up my nose,and there we go…Oh,wait;better change the red leds from the eyeglasses for real N-IR ones,like those I put in the headphones.It will work;I’m sure :-))

  38. Henk Noordhuizen January 24, 2020 at 3:42 am Reply

    I’ve tried to place a list of fluoridated “medicines’,here,twice,but it doesn’t show up.Might it be the Akismet spam filter,thinking it is a commercial?Anyone knows how to do it?For now,the list is given to me,on Mercola.com;it’s in one of the comments (mar6915):


    Quite a lot of interesting info about Fluoride can be found in those comments,as well!

  39. L January 24, 2020 at 12:13 pm Reply

    When we are fighting these toxins and the behemoth industries that make them, and our so-called protection agencies, it’s important that we be careful factually. It doesn’t take much for us to be “called out” as exaggerating, or making stuff up. This is on my mind because I just read the weekly email “Floxed Friday” that I subscribe to. It is written by the director and producer of a film called “Floxed.” I applaud her efforts and I think it’s great she does this. BUT there was a glaring factual error in this week’s email.

    She said it was illegal for anyone over 60 to be prescribed cipro. This is not true. There is a black box warning, for those over 60…which is, as it is called, a warning. It means that there are more serious risks, perhaps even life-threatening risks, for this age group. It means that the physician and pharmacy should be addressing this with the patient so the patient can make a more informed decision if risks outweigh benefits. (It is called a black box warning because it has a black box around it, to call attention to it.)

    So if any one you subscribe to this weekly letter, know that what was said about it being “illegal” in the US for those over 60 just is not factual.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 24, 2020 at 5:14 pm Reply

      On paper,it is a warning,and not forbidden. In practice,it is concidered as being an advice.

      • L January 24, 2020 at 5:22 pm Reply

        I think that’s what I said. it is a warning. it is not a law. if one were charged in court for injuring someone for whom they prescribed this, in spite of the black box warning, they would be charged with negligence and the elements that would need to be proved are duty, breach, causation, and damages.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 25, 2020 at 4:32 am

          Yes,L.;I agree with you.The sad thing is that most doctors don’t see it as a warning per sé,but as an advice which they can ignore.I’m pretty sure that even the new Black Box warnings did not change much,regarding theit prescription behaviours.And,of course,there’s the money,and the Farmafia,which keeps on brainwashing the doctors into pushing their poisons on as many patients as possible.Musquito bite? Try Cipro!

          This is not unethical;this is disgusting,and it will only change when the system is drasticly changed and society starts punishing everybody who hurts sick people,from doctors,to Farmafia,to the corrupt officials who let,sorry,MAKE this all happen!

        • L January 25, 2020 at 11:46 am

          Most doctors are not even AWARE of it. They just know what the drugs sales reps tell them. Of the dozen doctors that threw me under the bus post-floxing, all but ONE was aware of ANY of the side effects. And that one doctor was ONLY aware of the tendon ruptures. Period. I went to a neurologist who was not aware there was a warning of possible permanent nerve damage! Perhaps in the last five years more are aware, but I would guess that number is still pretty low.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 25, 2020 at 11:56 am

          I am quite sure that most doctors ARE aware of the adverse reactions,but they are trained by the Farmafia to deny it.Or,like my doc did,to ignore it (and mix Cipro with the Flecainide,I already used,despite the warning she just received,and told me about).And when tings went terribly wrong and I told her I had to stop the Cipro after 4 pills,she got angry at me and shouted (you read it well!) in my face that she never heard any claims about the Cipro.Taking their pills away is like taking their lives away;medicine prescription is the essence of their excistance as a doctor;it’s,in fact,all they have to keep up their status.

  40. Andrea January 24, 2020 at 8:29 pm Reply

    I just ended a 48 hrs fast, I wanted to do a 72 hrs fast, but, like the previous times, after the first day, I started to get the symtpoms of a relapse, so this time I cut it short and end up at the 48th hour mark. The sad thing, is that, everytime I tried a water fast, not only the symptoms came back, but I’ve never noticed any improvement even after refeeding. Right now, after I ate something (fruits, water with lemon juice) even my digestive symtopms came back in full force.
    I remember you too have tried a fast, what was your experience from it?

    PS anyone who’s reading, feel free to share your experience, if you’ve tried a fast too

    • Andrea January 24, 2020 at 8:37 pm Reply

      Oh, and just to be more specific, the other two times i’ve tried fasting, I did a 100% water fast, this time I kept taking my supplements (vitamin D3+K2 and some liquid multimineral), still no improvements…

      • L January 25, 2020 at 12:10 am Reply

        I had done a fair amount of research before I started, I had read to only take essential meds. Like thyroid medication. (I didn’t even do that.) But no supplements, no nothing. Just water.

    • L January 25, 2020 at 12:07 am Reply

      No problems with it at all. (Other than the normal flu-like feelings at around two days. ) Day one was pretty easy, Day two wasn’t too bad early on, and the hunger started to subside a bit. but then I felt really sluggy, and again, almost like I was coming down with the flu. Day three was brutal. Just couldn’t wait for it to be over. I finally broke the fast at exactly 72 hours, with watered down juice, which tasted AMAZING. It didn’t have any effect on the particular issue I was having, but I felt really good after wards, like my body had kind of a clean slate to start from.

      • Andrea January 25, 2020 at 7:24 am Reply

        This is just weird…I’m talking about our symptoms, and how we floxies have been damaged by the same crap, but we have so different reactions. For what I understand, you’ve been damaged a lot more than me, and I’m saying this with great respect for you, but a 3 days water fast seems to be much more challenging for me than it is for you. And it wasn’t the hunger, I can deal with it pretty easily. Even for me, the first day was always easy to go through. Yeah, maybe a little weak now and then, but I feel ok afterall. But during the beginning of the second day, the pain “inside” my legs really flear up, I get extremely weak, and even the dizziness start to come back. The third day has always been extremely hard. Pain in the legs very strong, extremely tired and weak, and the scariest part, the dizziness, almost unberable. I’ve never done a blood test before and after the fast, to see if it was at least good for my cholesterol and/or my glycemia. Anyway I don’t think I’m going to try it again, not soon at least. Maybe I would give intermittment fasting (12/12) a try, but that’s it for now with prolonged water fast.
        The sad part is…I remember, many years ago, I sometimes fasted for a couple of days with no problems at all, and that feeling of wellness after starting to eat again was amazing.Now it takes me at least 12/24 hrs to get back on track. Oh well, at least I’ve tried it…

        • Rae January 25, 2020 at 11:08 am

          I also now experience heightened symptoms and especially that scary dizziness you describe when I attempt intermittent fasting, even though I am not hypoglycemic. My traditional medicine doctor told me fasting is bad for me specifically, even though he has been treating me for digestive problems. So I eat very small regular meals, losing weight but feeling better in this regard.

          One problem with a lot of medical practices is not recognizing inherent differences. People who do well with fasting probably have a fiery constitution and can benefit from “cooling off” from the heat created by digesting food. For others, when you have little fire burning anymore, you really need regular fuel.

        • L January 25, 2020 at 12:13 pm

          yeah, it’s just crazy how differently this all effects us. But I really believe I was so devastated because I was also on prednisone at the time. Not only does that exacerbate the flq toxicity, but it also has a host of nasty side effects on its own. My worst pain was in the middle of my back. It was excruciating, and felt like it was buried deep in the bone. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it was near where I had fractured my scapula (along with some ribs) several years prior to the floxing. I think it somehow finds your vulnerable areas. The pain was 100 times worse than the fractured ribs/scalpula was. So bad that at one point, even though I already hated hospitals, and had vowed to never step foot in one again, I went to the local ER begging for something. (Sadly and stupidly I mentioned chest pain I was having which I already knew was not threatening, having just seen the cardiologist the day before, but they wouldn’t take my word for it and insisted on doing all the testing I had just done, so I left —with them yelling at me I needed to stay—without getting anything. For over a month I just was curled up in a ball on my couch, in tears, with no let up.

          My worst issues were the gasping for breath, which seemed to be related to either nervous system damage and//or mitochondrial damage to the heart muscle, but again my breathing has been an issue in the past with asthma, even though this was a completely different experience and not at all like an asthma attack. More like someone kept slapping a pillow over my face every few seconds. I had lots of scary vision issues, and again, I had some completely unrelated eye issues in the past. It’s like this stuff just knows where you are at your weakest. I had never had any joint issues, but did end up with torn meniscus in both knees. And the mental side effects were horrifying. I had been treated for depression for decades, and had successfully gotten off those drugs and on to turmeric just a year before this all happened.

          After I started the IVs, within a month or so the very first side effect to drop off was the excruciating back pain. It never came back in these five years. So perhaps fasting is more beneficial for other kinds of issues. Like I said it is supposed to be a reset for immune problems. It is also supposed to be beneficial for mitochondria.

          If you can do intermittent fasting, that’s great. It is still beneficial. I was doing that for a few months before I undertook the three day fast. I need to go back to that, now that you mention it!

        • Rae January 25, 2020 at 1:07 pm

          L, you are on fire! Have you ever thought about living in a cold climate?

          This is a problem with studies. They lump all kinds of people together and then find a median which isn’t helpful for the people at the ends of the spectrum.

        • L January 25, 2020 at 1:13 pm


        • Andrea January 25, 2020 at 2:54 pm

          Thanks L.
          I want to ask your opinion to see if you can help with this one.
          I already wrote about my digestive issues, that all started after I took a damn probiotic which contains S. Boulardii, who gave terrible constipation at the beginning, and since then I’m suffering from what it looks like IBS.
          One particular disgusting thing, is this permanent white coat on my tongue. No matter how many times I wash my mouth and brush my tongue, it’s always there. I thought it could be mouth thrush, so a few weeks ago I decided to try for a coulpe of weeks Nycostatin (an antifungal). Not only it didn’t help, but it seems it made the white coat even more consistent. Any thoughts on this one? I remember reading that S. Boulardii (a yeast) is used to cure candida (another yeast), but soemtimes it could give you yeast overgrown…but then, why after the antifungal the symptoms even worsened??

        • L January 25, 2020 at 3:12 pm

          wow, that sure sounds like thrush to me. early on my tongue was white too for months. I didn’t take anything for it, but as I got better, and my gut improved, it finally went away. Are you on a good quality probiotic?

          Even though I have been cultured and appear to have NO fungal, bacterial or viral infection for this unending congestion issue, I wanted to take something “just in case” it was fungal but didn’t show up in the test (which I have been told can happen) So I am taking something called Mycozil. It is from Global Healing Center and is a support for normal fungal and yeast balance. I figured it couldn’t hurt, no matter what, so you might want to take a look at that.

          Here is a piece from Dr Axe, who I like, on causes of white tongue. https://draxe.com/health/white-tongue/

        • sheila January 25, 2020 at 3:26 pm

          When I had thrush a long time ago my doctor told me to take over the counter Lactaid tabs and mine went away quickly. Not sure if that will work but it did for me.

        • Andrea January 25, 2020 at 3:43 pm

          Thanks a lot L. Right now, the only probiotic that it’s doing something is VSL#3. I’ve tried at least 4 or 5 other probiotic, but none of them ever worked. Actually some of them even worsened my symotms (bloating) or gave diarrhea.
          Thanks for the link. I’ll defenetly check it out.

        • L January 25, 2020 at 4:27 pm

          yeah, that vsl 3 was one of the first things recommended to me. Can’t recall now if I ever used it. But I have heard good things about it from several sources. Something else you may want to look into is Essiac tea. I DID use that for a while, but not for gut issues. https://www.davidwolfe.com/essiac-tea-benefits/

      • Andrea January 25, 2020 at 3:44 pm Reply

        Sheila, thanks for info, I’m going to google it

        • Rae January 25, 2020 at 6:21 pm

          Andrea, I had a white coat throughout this floxing that I was trying to fix as if it were candida, to no avail. Like you, I also developed terrible IBS from s boulardii etc.

          But the day I came down with shingles, my tongue went red. So for me, white tongue is weakness and red tongue is inflammation (simplistically).

          Tongue diagnosis is used in Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. You can look up some diagrams on the internet.

          Whatever you think of China economically or politically, the people of Wuhan and other affected cities do not deserve what is happening to them.

          Beautiful picture of Wuhan’s Huanghelou in the snow


  41. Don M January 25, 2020 at 7:32 pm Reply

    Dr. Axe on white tongue. “White tongue is a sign that something isn’t right with the body. Thankfully, there are natural remedies that help clear up the issue. Colloidal Silver, probiotics, baking soda, oil pulling, sea salt and oregano oil are just some of the easy and natural treatments for white tongue”.

    From a previous posting by L. Here is a piece from Dr Axe, who I like, on causes of white tongue. https://draxe.com/health/white-tongue/

  42. JP January 26, 2020 at 2:36 am Reply


    I read here that some people had bad reactions to septocaine or articaine at the dentist. It seems that the same happened to me last month, I just didn’t figure it out at first because that I had had that many times before without issues during the floxing.

    But now my neuropathy has been much worse for 6 weeks so there can’t be any other explanation than the articaine. The question is: what to take next? I have soon another appointment, a couple of fillings needed. One possibility is to do it without numbing agents even though its not fun.

    Btw, has anyone of those of you who had a bad reaction to local anesthesics tried to take that local anesthesic as a diluted homeopathic version? That might stop the reaction.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 26, 2020 at 4:04 am Reply

      JP,I had several fillings,which were later replaced by non-amalgam fillings;never had local anesthetics.At the dental hygienist for a cleaning,also never want an anesthetic.Both the fillings and the cleaning job might hurt,but it’s only for a short while.As soon as the job is done,the pain rapidly fades away.Better than walking around with the numb feeling,sometimes biting in your tongue.Which is a pain that lasts way longer.

      I don’t have “floxed” experience with antesthetics because since I was floxed,sept.2016,I didn’t visit a dentist or hygienist.But I would only choose for anesthestic when a tooth or molar has to be removed.

  43. Attsy January 26, 2020 at 7:56 am Reply

    Hello all,
    would you go for MRI with contrast die (gadolinium)? Do you have some experience with it? Is it toxic to your body? I am thinking about getting it.
    Thank you.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 26, 2020 at 8:13 am Reply

      As far as I know,this contrast dye is quite risky stuff (you call it “die”.so,maybe you know the answer to your question,already? :-). Dr.Mercola wrote about it,a while ago,I think.

      • Andrea S. January 26, 2020 at 9:12 am Reply

        Sometimes the dye is a necessary evil if they are really trying to get a clear picture of something. Ie: the brain as it can help show the MS lessons or tumors. I hate the stuff though. I always got a terrible taste in my mouth and a hot sensation when it was injected. I heard that if you do have to get it, drink tons and tons of water after because it’s very hard on the kidneys. You want to flush it out of your system quickly. I was told to drink at least 4 bottled waters after. Purified of course.

    • Nicole January 26, 2020 at 8:48 am Reply

      I know I get a reaction from all dyes now but mainly just bad diarrhea, and sometimes before the test is finished. Ha ha! Never had reaction from them before floxing. That being said I had to have a MRI with gadolinium a year ago and of course all of us floxies are against any chemicals but at my age life happens. Some tests are important. So that being said a few hours of diarrhea was the only reaction I had. I think I get diarrhea from a lot of things now because my body wants to reject it and get it out.
      So anyway I can’t say it bothered me in any flox way and I have had extreme flox symptoms for 4 years. You name it, I’ve had it.
      So if it’s important then you need to know.
      My cousin was always afraid of getting a colonoscopy. She had never been sick really a day in her life but suffered from hemorrhoids. Turned out her hemorrhoid was rectal cancer. So if it is for a important reason we sometimes have chance it.

    • mmec7 January 26, 2020 at 9:17 am Reply

      For me, *never again. I had twice, six months apart. I ended up with a horrific reaction, Iatrogenic Lipodermatosclerosis. Landed up in hospital, left with permanent damage to lower legs : https://dermnetnz.org/topics/lipodermatosclerosis-images/
      For further information, see the gadolinium injury website : The Lighthouse group, run by one amazing lady, Sharon Williams, herself is severely injured by Gd and also Hubble Grimm, who was also badly injured. The patient stories make grim reading.
      Can also develop Nephrogenic systemic fibrosis – usually with history of gadolinium exposure during MRIs in the context of impaired renal function.
      In Europe, four Gd products have been withdrawn from the marketplace. Gd now carries a FDA Black Box warning. Radiologists have been advised not to use the MRI Gadolinium contrast agents (dyes) unless absolutely necessary.
      7% of the dye remains in the body, in the brain. The products are *not eliminated/washed washed out of the body via the kidneys.

    • L January 26, 2020 at 11:43 am Reply

      No to contrast. It is used to made it a bit easier for the doctor to read the results, but bad news for you. I have had several mri s done and I always state “no dye” There are so many stories out there because it is toxic. Here’s one https://losethebackpain.com/gadolinium-toxicity/

      • mmec7 January 26, 2020 at 12:37 pm Reply

        I neglected to mention, that my own exposure happened in 2013. The residual damage will be permanent. During my reactions, my lower limbs, my arms, then a horrific rash across my back. The skin fell off the palms of my hands and soles of my feet and lower legs – It was a horrific sight. I was carrying 4.5 kilos of oedema in my lower horribly swollen legs with serum running down my lower legs – impossible to wear shoes, so it was sandals tied on with string ! The burning and itching and pain was unendurable. Also pain in my shin bones. Never to be forgotten. So, for me, no to MRIs with a contrast dye.
        It is not 100% need to use Gd, so long as the screening unit has a modern up-to-dat machine, and if possible a 3-Tesla, together with an excellent radiologist, then contrast should not be necessary. For me, and I have a diagnosis of MS and a spinal inflammatory disease, the medical profession have had to accept the facts of the matter. No MRI contrast products. End of.

        • L January 26, 2020 at 12:52 pm

          OH, I am so sorry. That’s horrible! Our bodies are already so taxed, we certainly don’t need more toxins being pumped into them.

          I had had this special lung test done…can’t recall the name…where they use both a dye AND they pump radioactive material into you. The doctor insisted I have it because a test result showed a high likelihood of embolism. (D-dimer test). Well I did some research and even though my result was a tiny bit high, I had read that there was an age related factor that would bring it down to normal. I told my doctor about this, and he was very dismissive. (Surprise!) At this point I was still very messed up by Cipro, in fact this was the early days of my hell. Well, he finally frightened me into doing it. And of course it came out negative. I was so pissed that I had all that toxic crap put in me. (I would say though, if you have to have any kind of toxins put it you, have a bunch of liposomal vitamin c before and after. Also some chorophyl.) https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2019/03/12/need-to-know-do-i-need-contrast-dye-gadolinium-mri/

        • mmec7 January 26, 2020 at 3:47 pm

          Thank you for your comment L and for the link – interesting. Thought I was a member of pretty much *all the MS websites and f/b sit out there. So, have posted my story, see if they pick it up for an airing…! Take care.

    • Attsy January 26, 2020 at 4:34 pm Reply

      Thank you for all your replies. I have read it all and I am completely horrified, And again fed up that they use so many toxic stuff in medicine and call it completely safe and I am again not informed. I am very sorry for your negative experience. Unfortunately the procedure I should undergo can’t be done without this dye, so now I am thinking about it.

      • L January 26, 2020 at 6:06 pm Reply

        If you have to have it there are things you can do to help protect yourself. When I had my amalgam fillings removed, both before and after the procedure my holistic DDS had me open one of those liposomal C packets and slurp it down. (you can add to a little bit of water…goes down much easier.) The gadolinium is a metal, so you want to really up your antioxidants, including glutathione (or take NAC, the precursor.) Also look into iodine. then after wards, a common heavy metal detoxer is chlorella. (There are others.) I think if you have to do it there are certainly ways to minimize the effects.

    • Andrea January 26, 2020 at 5:27 pm Reply

      Attsy, here in Italy, in 2018 gadolinium received a worning ( just like FQ’s and from the same body) because it is PROVEN to don’t leave the body completely and it accumulates in brain tissues. but it also says that there’s no evidence this can hurt you. Well, I don’t know about you, but I don’t really want anything in my brain tissue.
      Also some contrast dye containing gadolinium were took off the market as a consequence of that worning…

      • mmec7 January 26, 2020 at 5:36 pm Reply

        Andrea : Quote : “…it is PROVEN to don’t leave the body completely and it accumulates in brain tissues.”
        Correct. The research providing this point was done in Japan. It is found that approximately 7% Gd is left in the brain. Gd is unsafe. Around the world a substitute is being researched. A couple of possibly good avenues have been found. One awaits delivery of the research and alternatives to been wheeled out.

  44. Andrea January 26, 2020 at 5:32 pm Reply

    Oh, and of course, the neurologist who prescribed my the MRI told me there were no side effects with Gadolinium. I told him about the restriciton and the brain stuff. He just said “don’t worry, and don’t read too much on the Internet”…yeah, I did it already in 2016, when another funny doctor prescribed me a FQ…

    • L January 26, 2020 at 6:11 pm Reply

      I swear, of ALL the doctors, neurologists are the absolute worst when it comes to recognizing drug damage. The one that said I was delusional had NO idea that there was a warning for possible permanent nerve damage from fluoroquinolones. And recently, against my better judgement, I went to someone an ENT referred me to, thinking perhaps this ongong issue is due to autonomic nerve damage. The guy seemed to understand, and did a kind of basic exam, and then told me there was someone he could refer me to for that kind of testing. He left the room just after I handed him the list of side effects from the Cipro. (A full page, single spaced) and when he came back, he said he wanted to think about my case over night and he would call the next day. That was three weeks ago. I even called and left messages. I think he saw the list, assumed I was insane, and just wanted nothing more to do with it.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 4:02 am Reply

        Quite a remarkable reaction. Is it kind of a confession? Doesn’t he want to handle the mess,other doctors made? Or is there simply no remedy for the damage done by FQ’s ,and other medicines?

        My first nerve damage was caused by using a PPI (Losec/Omeprazole) for over 15 years.While still on this Losec,an antibiotics course (Metronidazole + Amoxicilline) hit my nerves like a nerve-bomb,and I was left with numb area’s aal over my body.Right after this,my heart arrithmea went into high gear and I was rushe do hospital by ambulance,twice in two weeks,not long thereafter.And,as an icing on the cake;Cipro time!

        All started with the Losec;all the other “medicines” that came later were ,directly and indirectly caused by the first one,Losec,and the severe magnesium defficiency it caused,and all the damage as a consequence of that.As soon as you start taking those synthetic and chemical “medicines”,you’re doomed.It’s a system that takes you in and never lets you go!

        The only way to go,if the world wants to survive this,qua health and finances,is,stop putting all the money in those big,greedy pockets,and use it for doing research on natural remedies.The research might cost a bit,but the remedies are,most of the time,very cheap,and we wouldn’t have to stuff the greedy devils and still have the extreme damage of adverse reactions and poisonings,and the extreme costs these do to society.

        And we should demand/order the Farmafia to hand over all the information they gathered during 150 + years,about the global natural remedies and herbs (on which they base their “medicines”);we already payed a hefty price for it,and that knowledge belongs to us,the people!

        • L January 27, 2020 at 12:04 pm

          And you might not have even needed the PPIs since most people have too LITTLE stomach acid.

          Don’t know if you caught this little tidbit in today’s mercola. Newsguard, the internet trust tool” that supposedly weeds out fake information, is heavily funded by Publicis Groupe…which has strong ties to big pharma

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 1:44 pm

          Yes,L.;I read it this morning.They don’t just have strong ties with the Farmafia;they act as the “man in the middle” for the funding of Newsguard,by the Farmafia.

          You’re right on me,having too little stomach acid;I found out after I stopped the PPI.Now,when I get acid reflux after a meal,I just eat a citrus fruit,and after initially worsening,the reflux stops.Seems that the entrance of the stomach stays open untill the stomach acid is high enough;then it closes.Read this somewhere,and it seems to be true.Some people drink a glass of water and 1-2 spoons of appel cider vinager,before eating.

        • L January 27, 2020 at 1:56 pm

          I’m back to using HCL Betaine for now…and digestive enzymes. When I had the blood work done I was mystified that I was still low in Bs and Magnesium…both of which I supplement with. My integrative MD said it means that I am not properly absorbing them. So digestive enzymes and pancreatic enzymes. That’s why these tests are so valuable. You can find out that your supplementation is just wasting money.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 2:10 pm

          HCL Betaine did not work for me and sometimes gave me pain in the stomach.

          Part of the cause of not enough stomach acid might be,a too low salt intake.My problems started when I was a young teen.My mother had to eat a no salt diet,adviced by her doctor (which,in fact,didn’t help).My father and brothers added the salt on their plates;but I didn’t like it;not on my potatoes (although I really salt it on french fries),and certainly not on my vegetables).That’s when the refluxes started,and untill recently,I was eating a low salt diet,more or less.Just one of the “mistakes”,science adviced us (or was it really a mistake??).

          When not absorbing enough magnesium by food,or supplements,transdermal magnesium supplementation should work better for you.Both baths and oil;I prefer the oil and think it is more efficient and a lot cheaper than the baths.

        • A.Coleman January 27, 2020 at 2:52 pm

          Hey gang,

          I had lots of digestive issues post floxing. LOTS including gastroparesis, nausea, burping (nearly constant for 2 years) and heartburn; but that didn’t start until about a year post-floxing. When I was first floxed they initially claimed I had an ulcer and told me to take PPIs which I did for 6 weeks; this was before I figured out I was floxed. This stupid mistake (I did not have an ulcer) made my floxing reaction far worse; because it eliminated the few nutrients I was absorbing.

          Good news is that I am nearly over those issues. I still have a tiny bit of heartburn and a little nausea but have far more days when I am completely normal in regards to digestion. Not sure I am absorbing vitamins and nutrients like I did before floxing yet; but definatly making strides.

          I had a few things that seemed to really help.

          NOT taking a PPI or even an H2 inhibitor (I refused both of these) once the heartburn started made the struggle last very long; but I think contributed to me starting to get better and to better absorption of various vitamins and minerals. I did take a few tums at night to sleep for about 6 months when the problem was at its worst.

          Taking betaine HCL – contrary to various online protocols you don’t need to take 7 or 8 of these after a meal. You do not need to take these until you feel burning; because the ability of more of these to further lower pH in your stomach is minimal. 1 Betaine HCL will take anyone’s stomach pH to a pretty low level and 2 will take it to the range of “normal”. More only minimally lower stomach pH. Read this study – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946491/

          I took HCL for about a year; only at lunch and dinner and went down from 2 tablets to one around 6 months.

          I also took Iberogast. This is available over the counter in the US; but I think it requires a prescription in the EU. This is a Bayer product (don’t go screaming at me – lol) it is a natural herbal supplement that contains many different natural herbs with the main ingredient being licorice root (not de-glycerizzed; so those of you with high BP be careful)

          This helped the most. Helped my stomach lining heal. I took it for about 9 months; but I had to cut back on it eventually as it made my mild high BP tick up and would have required a bigger dose of medication. By then it had helped me heal most of the way; so instead of adding a BP med; I stopped the Ibergost.

          I also took various probiotics; they helped but not until the later stages. I think early on; my body just needed time to heal the lining and adjust the pH. In later stages probiotics were very important.

          Other things that seemed to help – glutamine (though it eventually triggered bad headaches and I had to stop); de-glyccerized licorice and bitters.

          Most important is to avoid the PPIs and H2 blockers at all cost. Those things should not be available as over the counter medicine. The harm they do is immense and only creates other health concerns. Losing weight and eating healthy are the best ways for most people to manage heartburn along with a bit of food avoidance.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 3:17 pm

          Iberogast was a Steigerwald product untill Bayer bought it in 2013.I migh give it a try,although it’s Bayer’s Cipro that brought me here.Would have tried it already when the name Bayer would not have been on the package.There’s also Iberolax.

        • L January 27, 2020 at 3:26 pm

          I hate Bayer so much I refuse to buy anything they are linked to. Which is a LOT, including Scholl sandals! https://www.bayer.com/en/products-from-a-to-z.aspx

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 28, 2020 at 3:05 am

          You’re right;in 2009 Merck & co purchased the Dr. Scholl’s,brand and in 2014 it was purchased by Bayer.

        • L January 27, 2020 at 3:25 pm

          yes, the HCL Betaine “instructions” vary widely. When I was first put on them, I got up to like 8 capsules and STILL did not feeling that “warmth” they talk about. But I did stay on a pretty hefty dose for most of the first year.

          This go round, I got up to seven and again, never felt that “warmth” and I told my integrative MD about it and he said “oh, you don’t need that much! Take 4.” So I have been taking 4 with high protein meals. But after reading this, I think I will drop it to two. Thanks. It’s frustrating when you see naturuopathic/integrative health care people write posts saying that if you don’t get up to that magic number of capsules, it is doing no good. This makes it MUCH simpler.

        • Andrea January 27, 2020 at 4:43 pm

          Very interesting A. Coleman.
          A few days ago, I’ve ordered some glutamine to take for my digestive issues. I was reading you need to take quite a lot to see some improvements for treating leaky gut, soemthing like 20 to 40 gr a day. How much were you taking at the time?
          Thanks. Oh, one of the best natural sources of glutamine, above many other things, seems to be bone broth. When I drink it, my digestive issues get a little better.

        • A.Coleman January 28, 2020 at 9:31 am


          I have read those crazy high numbers too. I was taking a 1 gram tablet and I took 2 tablets each morning. I think to get those super high numbers you have to buy the powdered form. I was taking a Jarrow brands tablet. I took it for about 6 months and it seemed to help; but then headaches started getting really bad. I was otherwise healing my digestive system at that time; so it could be coincidence too.

          Mostly this was due to my developing brain fog and headaches as my latest floxie sypmtom (started about this time last year). When I quit the headaches got better though I am still battling mild headaches and still have repeating bouts of brain fog.

        • Andrea January 28, 2020 at 2:42 pm

          A. Coleman
          Yeah, as a matter of fact, I’ve ordered some L Glutamine powder. I’m going to try to start with a low dose and then move up. Let’s see what happens…

      • Attsy January 27, 2020 at 10:48 am Reply

        I completely understand you L, I had similar discussion with one of my doctor. Foolishly told him about all side effects of the antibiotics and benzodiazepams. He was softly smiling at me and promised to help. I also left him a few messages but no answer since. He probably thought I was insane.

        • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 11:25 am

          No;he was upset that you figured out about their safety lies.Now,he doesn’t want to get confrontated yet another time;that’s why he doesn’t react to your messages.Just the usual reaction ;-))

  45. mmec7 January 26, 2020 at 5:44 pm Reply

    Sheesh – one can’t invent it. When confronted with such, I send in rafts of information to prove the point, and, ask them to please do us a favour, and do diligent research before blindingly submitting patients to such detrimental toxicities, toxicities with well proven unwanted side effects. Our bodies, not theirs.

  46. David pollard January 27, 2020 at 5:23 am Reply

    Can anyone please tell me what antibiotics do NOT affect mitochondria.
    I need to be treated for serious infection and doctors seem lost as to what to prescribe.

    • Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 6:45 am Reply

      First of all:choose one that is NOT Fluoride “fortified”.All FQ’s are pure (Fluoride-) poison.The list on this website is a good,be it incomplete,start:


    • Anne January 30, 2020 at 2:08 am Reply

      Dear David, I was floxed in Dec. 2015. My sister’s friend was among a group of research MD’s who was keenly aware of the true damage possible from FQ’s. This was because that group of MDs was working on creating a safer antibiotic. As far as they could see, their new drug was not going to dangerous in the way FQs were/are for some of the population. Here are the links she recently sent me. This is the antibiotic I may try besides penicillin if I am in an emergency situation in the future. There are no guarantees, but I trust my sister and her friend. https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20190206/new-antibiotic-treats-pneumonia-skin-infections#1
      You may want to do your own research. Wishing you well. It must be really hard to choose.

      • Henk Noordhuizen January 31, 2020 at 3:05 am Reply

        Anne,I think there’s a desperate need for new antibiotics but,reading one of both articles you linked,this astonished me:

        “Paratek’s omadacycline is made using two alterations to tetracycline’s chemical structure, according to Loh, so the product maintains tetracycline’s safety and efficacy while sidestepping the problem of resistance.”

        How can ALTERING a molecule,considered reasonably safe,be a reason to claim the same safety as the original one? Answer:it can’t.This is a new molecule,and only the future will prove if it’s safe,or not. It will kill intestinal bacteria (oral use;I am convinced AB’s should only be used as IV,not orally),and,like all synthetic “medicines” it will probably cause lot’s of ROS that,by not being able to oxidate “the enemy” (the “medicine”) wrecks havoc on the nearby cells,causing damage to mitochondria,DNA and mDNA.)

        I hope this will be a real life-saver,but it will only be when wisely used.Remember;it’s mainly the overprescription of older AB’s that made them almost useless,today.The “oldies” ,most of the time,do not kill the pathoges anymore,but they still DO harm human health,when used.And things don’t change that easy. Although Cipro,and other FQ’s,today,are only successful in about 20% of patients with UTI’s,for many,if not most doctor’s it’s still option Nr.1 for (suspected) UTI’s.

  47. Henk Noordhuizen January 27, 2020 at 10:03 am Reply

    No added Fluoride in EU tapwater,but no reason to think it’s safe:”Trihalomethanes in Drinking Water and Bladder Cancer Burden in the European Union”:


  48. patricia Anne helt January 27, 2020 at 6:38 pm Reply

    Has anyone tried macrobid for uti??
    I have one now, but waiting for culture to come back tomorrow

    • Sheila January 27, 2020 at 6:44 pm Reply

      yes after my doctor believed the cipro black box warnings she started giving me Macrobid I did fine it took longer to get the UTI cured but it worked. Once it’s gone see if D-Mannose works for you you have to be cured of the UTI then start taking D-mannose and it should prevent further UTI’s it has worked for me for over 2 1/2 years, if you want to know how I take D-Mannose let me know here, I’ll give you my regimen, cause at the level of dosage on the bottle it’s recommended to only take it a short time, but my regimen is low and steady

    • L January 27, 2020 at 6:44 pm Reply

      I have not. It’s one of those good news / bad news things. It does target UTIs BUT it is pretty toxic too, including possible pulmonary injury. I have mentioned this before. Find a good naturopath, preferably female and she may have the natural treatment. I cured mine several years ago, and I don’t have the exact instructions, which vary daily. Was supposed to take two weeks. Took a month and a LOT of supplements, but it got rid of it. As I recall it involves varying amounts of vitamin A, vitamin C, Herb Pharm’s urinary system support and d mannose. (might have been one other ingredient.)

  49. Henk Noordhuizen January 29, 2020 at 6:46 am Reply



  50. Henk Noordhuizen January 29, 2020 at 6:47 am Reply

    Ciprofloxacin impairs mitochondrial DNA


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