Floxie Hope


This site is to give HOPE to those who are suffering from Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome as a result of being poisoned by fluoroquinolone antibiotics – Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox, Floxin, etc.  It contains stories of healing.

Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox and all other fluoroquinolones are dangerous drugs that can have devastating effects that cumulatively I’ll refer to as Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome or Floxing.  Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing includes damage to connective tissue (tendons, ligaments, cartilage, fascia, etc.) throughout the body, damage to the nervous systems (central, peripheral and autonomic), and more. The damage done by fluoroquinolone antibiotics can destroy a person’s quality of life or even kill them. Certainly, there is a time and a place for drugs with dangerous side effects. If you find yourself in a septic shock induced coma, fluoroquinolones may save your life. Unfortunately, these drugs are not being reserved for life or death situations. People are being prescribed them for urinary tract infections, suspected prostate infections, upper respiratory infections, as a prophylactic for travelers’ diarrhea, ear infections, pink eye, etc. Thousands of people have suffered needlessly from the devastating effects of fluoroquinolone antibiotics, when another, safer antibiotic could have, and should have, been used.

The damage done by fluoroquinolones is largely unacknowledged by the medical establishment and an accurate diagnosis, compensation and relief are difficult to come by. There is no known cure for Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing.  However, many people continue to LIVE after being poisoned by fluroquinolones.  They find healing, recovery, perseverance, compassion and hope.  These are their stories.

This site is meant to give hope for healing to those who are adversely effected by fluoroquinolones.  It is no way meant to disregard the pain of those who are chronically suffering from the horrifying effects of Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox or the other fluoroquinolones.  There are people who don’t recover.  Their stories are real and they matter.  There are also people who are able to recover and I share their stories with the hope that they inspire others, or at least give hope that recovery is possible.

Here is a New York Times article about the dangers of fluoroquinolone antibiotics – http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/popular-antibiotics-may-carry-serious-side-effects/?_r=0 – more news stories, research papers and other resources can be found on the “Links and Resources” page.

Here is a Facebook group that is a great resource for those going through Fluoroquinolone Toxicity – https://www.facebook.com/groups/floxies/

Featured post – I’m floxed. Now what?

The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution Ebook has helped many Floxies to recover, including DanielCindy and Ruth.  As a bonus, you will also receive The Floxie Food Guide – a book of diet guidelines to help you through fluoroquinolone toxicity:

flu tox get help you need banner click lisa




24,153 thoughts on “Floxie Hope

  1. M July 15, 2019 at 9:38 am Reply

    Hi all,

    Been a rough few months and I am still don’t understand what is happening.

    Long term Floxie. I’ve followed a strict paleo diet for nearly 3 years. Take no supplements as I find myself sensitive to most. Have felt decent and stable for quite some time, but I posted awhile back about how I have gotten worse from either re-introducing coffee or increasing the intensity of my exercise. I started to have one cup of coffee a week (which I have now stopped), and also started running several miles once a week.

    Ever since starting to do these things I have had worsening head pressure, fatigue, anxiety and brain fog. I also started having digestive issues, which I have NEVER had before.

    The fatigue is the worse though. I feel intolerant to exercise now. I am so exhausted after any physical activity I do, even low level stuff like walking. Along with the exhaustion I feel anxious, have difficulty focusing and am very depressed. I do not feel like myself. It lasts for days after exercise. When I am in this state other activities that I once enjoyed are exhausting too, including reading or even just watching television. I get exhausted trying to focus on nearly anything, and end up wanting to go to bed — which, unfortunately, does not even seem to help. I wake up fatigued after 8-9 hours of sleep.

    So, what, do I suddenly have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome now? It sounds like I have most of the symptoms to get this diagnosis.

    Or is this just another stage of Fluoroquinolone Toxicity?

    Ultimately, does it even matter what label we give it? Is the origin of fatigue similar for CFS as it would be for FQ toxicity?

    I am so afraid that I now suddenly have CFS. Does anyone have any insight on CFS as it relates to FQ toxicity?

    My hope is that maybe my strict paleo diet, which was naturally low carb, was enough when I was only active sporadically — but was not enough for the increased exercise I started doing. Still, after upping my carbs, my fatigue does not seem to dissipate…

    • Henk Noordhuizen July 15, 2019 at 11:49 am Reply

      Hi M,

      I experience the same tiredness,after any physical activity.Things like working in the garden really exhaust me,and not the kind of exhaustio one normally feels,and which gives you a satisfying feeling,but af a,before,being floxed,unknown kind.Feels like being sick to the bone and sometimes lasts for 2-3 days.

      I guess it’s caused by the damaged mitichondia,and I theorized,a while ago,that forcing cells to create more mitochondrie,things would get better over time.Later on I found out that Dr. Carola Dean has this same theory.But there are some doubts>because the mitochondria,and the mitochondrial DNA are damaged,the newly created mitochondria might be damaged as well.I hope that Lisa has found some info on this subject and want to share it with us.Or somebody else?

      Since I experiment with this theorized method,I do feel less sick afterwards,and I have a bit more endurance but,untill now,it didn’t work the miracles I hoped for.Better:yes.Like before I was floxed? Not by far.But every bit of improvement is very welcome,and regarding my age,more than I expected,to begin with.

      I think both the increased intensity of your exercises,and your low carb diet might be the problem,here.And don’t forget that exercising causes you to sweat,and lose minerals like magnesium and zinc.Coffee might add a bit to tah mineral loss but because it’s only one cup a week,I don’t think this adds up much to this exhaustion (coffee,in high quantities,can deplete the body of magnesium and zinc0.

      I would advice you to be very carefull,regarding nyour tendons,as well,because they are weakened since you were floxed.Don’t overdo,start to build up your condition very slowly;walking is better than running.

    • Don M July 16, 2019 at 8:39 am Reply

      Definition…………..Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a complicated disorder characterized by extreme fatigue that can’t be explained by any underlying medical condition. The fatigue may worsen with physical or mental activity, but doesn’t improve with rest. This condition is also known as systemic exertion intolerance disease (SEID) or myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME).
      ANYONE (in the medical field) who has bothered to read the warnings or look at the long list of side effects and get them self a little acquainted with Fluoroquinolone Toxicity can easily see that the underlying reason for the (unexplained) extreme fatigue is brought on by the system being poisoned by the use of a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic.

    • A.Coleman July 17, 2019 at 6:41 am Reply


      Exercise causes the body to eliminate toxins. My theory is that your lack of exercise the last few years has allowed your body to section off the Fluoroquinolone toxins so that they aren’t causing you problems but when you started exercising those toxins began to be released. The release of those toxins has caused the new symptoms.

      There are quite a few articles on the internet that speak to how the build up of toxins can be released by exercise. Here is one written in simple language – https://www.huffpost.com/entry/signs-of-systemic-toxin-a_b_1214624

      I know personally that I have forced myself to continue exercising while I have been recovering from floxing. You have to keep exercise to paramaters your tendons and joints can handle but this keeps those toxins moving and keeps you a little more healthy overall.

      I think you have a choice here. Stop exercising and I suspect your problems will subside in a few months or keep exercising and expect additional and continued symptoms until the toxins (flurorquinolones) exit your body. Sorry to hear about your problems with supplements because I would agree with Henk that with renewed exercise, detoxification, and general exercise you might benefit from some minerals and vitamins. I too have been eating mostly paleo for about 8 months now. It actually helped me get over the final hurdles with my digestive problems and except for head pressure and light headedness I am doing much better.

      Good luck

      • Sheila rogers July 17, 2019 at 8:46 am Reply

        I am worried about this tendon info I keep hearing about and wondered does this worry go away?? if the toxins are leaving does that mean that the tendons will return to almost normal??

        • Jessica Williams July 22, 2019 at 11:41 am

          Sheila, that is exactly the kind of none-answers I get, too. This disease has me asking questions that are always avoided. Like, does this ever go away? Can I wake up one day with a broken arm or leg or knee (or worse)? Will I wake up blind from detached retina? Will I end my life deaf, or lost in Alzheimer’s? Some forks here write stuff that would make Stephen King shudder.

          Are we here to get better? If so, let’s start a list of what works, who it works for, and how well it works, and try to answer all questions.

          I’m fighting for my life and I’m 71. I’m hard to beat, hard to knock down. I challenge everyone here to get well. Or die trying.


        • Sheila rogers July 22, 2019 at 12:31 pm

          Jessica yes that’s what I would like too, some info on what is working to combat this I see magnesium listed and other vitamins and minerals and I too am worried about waking up with something new to deal with…..I don’t know whether to exercise to help release toxins like yoga and pilates do or avoid it, I don’t know what to expect I am a leg amputee so if anything gives out on my one leg that’s left is that permanent will I spend my life in a wheelchair? I mean my god I am so frightened by this and yet I really am not getting a lot of help…..I hate to admit it but I don’t have the energy to put into doing a whole long list of what to take and when to take it and what to take it with and adjusting every facet of my diet and lifestyle to accommodate this issue I am just too emotionally worn out to want to invest that kind of effort into something that may or may not even work…….

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 22, 2019 at 1:50 pm

          Hello Sheila and Jessica,I understand your disappointment about some questions not getting answered but the reason is as simple as it is annoying: after years of being floxed we just don’t know the answers. Sometimes a symptom seems to have vanished but then,all of a sudden,it is back.Sometimes the reason is known (even one cup of tea can bring a relapse),but often the cause of the relapse is not clear.

          Meditation is always good but because (Hatha) yoga is much about stretching muscles,this might put too much force on tendons and muschels,so,be carefull.Even after almost 3 years (4 Cipro pills) my tendons are weak,and when I’m making a wrong move or putting just too much force on a muscle,there is some punishment.Not as bad as right after being Floxed,but enough te be worried.

          There is so much,not yet known about being floxed,and,although some of the symptoms are “common”,there’s so many possible symptoms,and difference between floxies,that it is just impossible to do any predictions.We would like to comfort you,sure thing,but the only thing we can do,is being honest and tell you that for most floxies things improve over time. How long,how much,those answers are hard to give;too much factors involved.

        • Sheila rogers July 22, 2019 at 6:42 pm

          I know this might sound silly but all this tendon talk has me concerned – what does a torn tendon feel like?? is it possible I have had this and not known that’s what it was?? It’s also a real worry for me since I walk on crutches being a leg amputee I walk on my wrists and use my arms for everything and in ways others don’t and obviously I abuse my one leg as it functions as two……. so I am getting worried about my future can someone explain a torn tendon and does it heal??

        • L July 22, 2019 at 7:07 pm

          While I have heard of someone doing an exercise or something strenuous and the tendon just “blowing” I think usually there are signs that something is wrong earlier. I didn’t rupture any tendons, but the cipro did cause torn meniscus in both knees, and very early on, weeks after the cipro, I started getting popping in my knees (other areas too). It became painful for me to use stairs. So for that I definitely knew something was wrong. Would be curious to see if anyone else had something that just suddenlty “went” without warning.

        • Sheila rogers July 22, 2019 at 7:47 pm

          that’s interesting cause I know I never had any joint popping till after cipro and my one knee started to just go weak and drop out so to speak – that can seriously injure me with being on crutches and one leg if that goes out I am on the floor…..and I have gotten weird swelling behind the knee only to disappear and then my ankle will swell and then it will be months before it does again and my arms feel super heavy and my elbows hurt all the time I even went into therapy for my elbows thinking it was too many years on crutches but the therapist said it was a nerve that was causing most of this, my dentist told me I had TMJ never had that issue either till after cipro…..

          Question – are brittle fingernails and nails that split vertically up the nail a result?? is hair loss a result of cipro?? I already have skin issues from it and the tons and tons of floaters in my eyes is almost impossible to see and I am an artist and it’s almost gotten to where I won’t do any artwork due to the floaters I just read that this is also a symptom…….but the nails and hair loss are worrisome as the hair just doesn’t stop thinning out and my nails are horribly ripped and tearing all the time and my finger joints just feel swollen all the time

        • L July 22, 2019 at 8:44 pm

          my floaters were awful…literally hundreds so it was like trying to look through gauze. Now I have very few. I also had hair come out in chunks. That stopped. Don’t know about the nails, but since this poison can destroy and all connective tissue, I supposed it is possible.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 23, 2019 at 3:22 am

          Hi Sheila,I cann’t tell you how a fully torn tendon feels but I had partially torn Archillea tendons,first on one side,and a few weeks later,shortly after the left one was healed,the right side one started hurting badly.I could hardly walk for over a month,and realized that the pain was a warning to not stress those tendons any further untill they were healed.My Magnetic Pulser helped reduce the pain,and,probably,to quicken the healing.

          That’s why I’m worried about yoga,and prefer meditation,instead (I’m a “TM’er”,did a training in 1998).When practicing yoga,choose your Asana’s wisely; a (partially) torn tendon is no fun,and can take a long time to fully heal.

        • L July 22, 2019 at 6:11 pm

          These are difficult questions to answer. Some people get better in months, some in years, and some continue to struggle. As for how long it takes to leave your body, that too is problematic. Some believe it continues to live in your fat cells; others believe the continued side effects are from damage to mitochondrial DNA. There are still just too many unknowns.

          Lists too are tenuous. What works for one may not work for the other. I did well with glutathione, the mother of antioxidants, as have others. Then again, there are people on this site who say it brought on side effects. We are all so different. That is why it is not as simple as just “making a list of what works.” Magnesium would be at the top of the list for most people, but I even recall someone saying they reacted to that. Some may need folate, especially if they have the MTHFR gene mutation that prevents them from utilizing folic acid. Others may not need it at all. Almost everyone needs a good probiotic to help fix the ravaging of good gut microbiome. Unhealthy gut microbiome is linked to almost all disease. Fermented foods are also very good for this….unless you have mast cell disorder, which can also come from fluoroquinolone poisoning. IN that case, fermented foods need to be avoided.

          Most would do well to add in coq10 (ubiquinol if over 40) to help the mitochondria. Dr Jay Cohen, in his book on fluoroquinolone toxicity mentions vitamin E, zinc, NAC (precursor to glutathione) in addition to magnesium.

          So you can see, it is difficult to come up with a definitive list. IF you can find an integrative MD or ND who has treated floxies, that is helpful. If you would like to share what area of the country you are in, perhaps someone on this site can give you a referral.

        • Sheila rogers July 22, 2019 at 6:35 pm

          Yes L you are right what I meant was it would be great to see a compiled list of things that worked for people so that people like me who are new to this site could read the list and see what things might sound like something we might want to try – I didn’t mean a list of what works 100% of the time cause it’s always different that’s why we all have similar but different symptoms – however, a list of things that worked for some leaving whether to try any of them up to the reader after researching it for themselves……. but gosh there are so many posts and so many repeats of the same ideas and suggestions and then the one post I might miss might have the one thing I needed plus I am a list person and like to see things simplified into a checklist – just knowing that magnesium worked for a few or manganese or leaving off fluorides etc. just a bullet list would simplify for us newbies as to what we could research…..sorry I wasn’t as clear as I should have been… I try to keep a notebook next to me now to try to write down what has worked for this person or that person so I can check it out later but a comprehensive list wow that would be so helpful

        • L July 22, 2019 at 7:04 pm

          It can be overwhelming. One thing that might help is scroll through the actual stories. many of them, at the very end, have posted what worked/what didn’t…..

        • Barbara Arnold July 22, 2019 at 9:48 pm

          Sheila, Home made bone broth from grass fed animals are great for hair and nails. I put mine in a pressure cooker with some veg and garlic for around 5 and a half hours. Then I strain it and freeze it in small quantities to be used in gravies, soups, stews etc or just drink it. If you do this for a period of time I have every confidence yoyr hair and nails will improve.

        • Sheila rogers July 23, 2019 at 5:31 pm

          thanks but I am such an animal advocate that I can’t do boiled bones I understand that gelatin is great I remember my mom drinking gelatin when I was little to get her hair and nails to grow…..so I know it works I just can’t do it….Thanks for the suggestion though…..It’s a horrible world we live in with this toxicity I did get the CoQ10 and I am slowly going to be adding other supplements I have been on probiotics even while I was taking the cipro so I hope that I kept my gut pretty clean even during the cipro ingestion…..but I am very careful about throwing anything at my system without giving it a while to adjust before introducing a second or a third supplement.

          Does anyone else have the skin lesions?? I have little bumps that keep coming up on my arms and sometimes my leg it’s leaving scars all over my arms it’s embarrassing and I wear jackets all the time even in 92 degree weather…..anyone else have those??

        • L July 23, 2019 at 6:01 pm

          I didn’t get those, but it just ravaged my skin, from the collagen damage they cause. My skin aged decades. Of course at the time, it was the least of my concerns, but now, after having spent decades working out and taking such good care of myself, I am pissed off!

          I wonder though if what you are experiencing is some kind of mast cell thing. I did get hives all over my torso for about a month during my first post-cipro year and I know others have as well. I also read on one site listing possible cipro side effects “red skin lesions, often with a purple center” These skin things tend to be transitory from what I have seen.

        • Anna July 24, 2019 at 6:56 am

          I began getting blood spots under my skin when I jogged, looked like busted blood marks that would heal and go away. It would actually feel like a pin pricking me when it would burst. I also had severe inflammation around the eye and i stretched my eye skin out permanently.

        • Barbara Arnold July 24, 2019 at 1:47 am

          Sheila, how about fish collagen powder from health food shops. Don’t know if you can do that. Here’s a good one if you can …Marine Collagen by Correxiko. It’s full of all the neccessary ingredients that you need, because from your post collagen is one of the answers to help you.

  2. Joanneg July 16, 2019 at 8:48 am Reply

    Hi M,
    I believe all Floxie are dealing with Candida! (Among multiple other things)
    Look up some sites on Candida.
    When you start killing it off your symptoms will get worse, especially fatigue cuz your cells are constantly working overtime to rid your body of it.
    There are many things that can help kill it and Exercise is one of them that’s probably why you got flared up.
    I’m 5 years out and was feeling really good but I still had some low level issues so I decided to try killing Candida and my results were exactly as they predicted!
    I got flared up in many areas including fatigue if it got too bad i’d lower the killing rate but I stuck with the program and after a couple weeks I felt better then when I started.
    There are many ways to kill it. I use Wobenzyme as directed on the bottle and Borax 1 teaspoon diluted in 1 liter of distilled water kept in the refrigerator and from that mixture I take 1 or 2 teaspoons a day. Out of all the things I tried, with these 2 i have the least die off affects or flare ups and the best results feeling more healed as I go. And I also take 3 Doctors Best magnesium 1 in the morning, afternoon, and evening.
    Whatever you decide to do, I’ll be praying for your healing and don’t get too discouraged it will get better😊

  3. Sheila rogers July 16, 2019 at 12:25 pm Reply

    Just a heads up for everyone – please do your research I started looking into this and saw where the Wobenzyme can cause bleeding issues or coagulation problems so I continued to do research and here is what I found for what it’s worth: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systemic-enzyme-therapy/

  4. Don M July 17, 2019 at 6:10 am Reply

    Just another idea. Is it right for you? Would it help you? https://draxe.com/boswellia/
    Seems like there would be benefits from it.

  5. Barbara Arnold July 18, 2019 at 9:04 am Reply

    To all European’s, the BBC is doing a programme on fluroquinolone’s in the light of the EMA recommendations. They are interested in anyone whose been floxed since. I’ve sent my story and opinions so anyone who wants to join in the email address is alix.hattenstone@bbc.co.uk

  6. 63chevyii July 18, 2019 at 7:34 pm Reply


    Long story short – I tore my bicep tendon a couple months ago after taking levaquin and prednisone for pneumonia. My doctors are saying that there’s no way to tell if my rupture was induced by the meds.

    I am now having increasing pain in one of my knees and achilles tendon and am very anxious that I may have another injury – is there a way to tell if I have damage due to taking the medication?

    Thanks for your input!

    PS – if you’re interested in the long version of my story, I’ve started documenting it here:

    • L July 18, 2019 at 9:23 pm Reply

      They always say ” couldn’t be the cipro or Levaquin or whatever” “no way to tell” I would bet good money it was from the fluoroquinolone. It tore both my meniscus. It eats through connective tissue. It also left me with so many hundreds of floaters it was like looking through gauze for the better part of two years. My suggestion would be to look into prolozone injections (procaine and ozone) to help the damaged areas heal naturally. Many NDs, sport medicine doctors, even some osteos now do this. And there is something else to look into…very new…exosomes, and I was about to do a post on that.

    • Barbara Arnold July 18, 2019 at 10:29 pm Reply

      Of course your Doc would say that. Ask him why the FDA has documented this and warned against fluroquinolones as had the EMA. There is enough evidence now to prove it’s from fluro’s, and to give you prednisone at the same time has made it worse. Don’t take any NSAIDS, it could make it worse. Start taking magnesium straight away. Just stay away from MD’s most know jack. If possible find yourself a ND. Look under resources at the top of this page for further help.

    • L July 19, 2019 at 9:02 am Reply

      By the way, since there was a warning already about giving steroids with fluoroquinolones, you might want to think about a lawsuit. Also, may I ask what state you are in? (There are also different pharmacy laws that may apply as well.)

  7. L July 18, 2019 at 9:33 pm Reply

    Hey everyone…something interesting you can all investigate on your own, in your areas of the country, or in your country other than the US. It’s exosomes. They are now being used to help treat everything from Altzheimers’ to rotator cuff injury to pain. The cool thing about exosomes, unlike stems (from another person) they don’t have DNA. If you receive Stems from another person, you basically become a DNA mosaic of that person and yourself…but since exosomes contain no DNA, there is not that problem. After a near century of study, so far they appear to have no downside. They can be introduced via IV, or injected, or even used topically, for say diabetic injury, much like hyperbaric can. They contain hundreds of growth factors and more to help create a regenerative response.

    Anyhow, you might want to look into Organicell exosome therapeutics (that s the one that my doctor uses) I don’t know much more than that…sat in on a discussion this evening.

    • Henk Noordhuizen July 19, 2019 at 1:32 am Reply

      That’s interesting info,indeed,but although a few clinics already offer exosome therapy (Advanced Rejuvenation in the USA,to name one),little is known about what exosomes really are,how they are generated and what their functions are.So,these therapy’s are experimental and might have long term risks,not yet known.Here’s some reliable info:


      • L July 19, 2019 at 9:43 am Reply

        well my doctor said that in decades of research they have so far found no down side. As for your citation, the author is with Cambridge Institute for Medical Research, which is funded by European Research Institute and Medical Research Council, which in turn do biomedical research. According to JAMA, 60% of that is funded by the pharmaceutical industry. I am not saying it has no validity, only that there could be bias.

        My doctor was telling us how sometimes you will see a study of something like this, a non-chemical/ non-pharmaceutical, that seems to be going well. It looks promising. Then suddenly….crickets. The study seems to have disappeared off the radar. What happened? Well, oftentimes, it was pulled, because the drug company behind the study was actually hoping for negative results, trying to prove it doesn’t work. Then when they became aware that it DID work, that would need to stop it.

        Again I didn’t want to get into some argument on the merits of exosome therapy. I only wanted to share something I thought was interesting and might offer hope to those who are feeling hopeless. That is why I said to investigate on your own.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 19, 2019 at 11:51 pm

          Hi L.,I think that the story,your doc told,is quite strange.Exosomes are not yet fully understood;in fact,the firdt decades after discovery,they were thought to be debris,excreted by cells.Only recently researchers realised that that exosomes are no debris but play an active roll which is,yet,not fully understood,and research is slowly discovering more about them,bit by bit.

          That’s the reason I am worried about a handfull of clinics is already commercialising exosomes,while so little is known.And the reason why,untill now,no downsides are found is a simple one:no research (which costs lots of money) is made untill researchers and funders are certain that exosomes are medically useable,safe,and financially interesting.

          And remember that those safety tests are,way too often,not done the proper way,or even corrupted by bias and greed.The adverse reactions,following FQ use,where “minor,and very rare,most of the times only excisting between the ears of hypochondric patients”.

          Entering a clinic,today, to give exosome therapy a try is,in fact,offering yourself to be a guinea pig.Wouldn’t suprise me if you will have to sign an agreement,preventing any damage claims which could heart the clinic.

        • L July 20, 2019 at 9:13 am

          Henk, I am not sure what part of my last response you did not understand: I wanted to offer something for people to investigate on their own, that shows great promise, and I was not interested in getting into a discussion with you on it. I know you put yourself out there as the ultimate expert on all things medical/scientific/pharmaceutical, ad nauseum. However, my doctor is an internist, pulmonologist and clinical care professional, who trained at UCLA as well as having extensive training in all aspects of functional and integrative medicine. You were not at the talk he gave. You did not hear the cogent responses he gave to the many questions he got nor did you see the slides, complete with studies. I will take his word over yours. You continue to tell people with great conviction what they should and should not do, which, I’m sorry, but it is just inappropriate not to mention legally tenuous for Lisa since it is basically “practicing without a license.” ALL of us here are only giving suggestions of what has helped us and others and what options readers might want to explore. I am sorry you have this compulsion to always be right, to always have the last word.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 20, 2019 at 9:46 am

          I just do my research,like you suggested,and give my opinion,based on the info I found. And if that info tells me there’s no,or not enough reliable research done on the safety of exosomes,I not just have the right,but the moral duty to write about my concerns.

          After all,floxies are even more vulnurable than totaly healthy people and have to be very carefull when experimenting with these kind of possible solutions.There is a reason why only a handfull of clinics offer this exosome therapy,suppose.Better too carefull than not carefull enough.

          Don’t react as if I attack you,personally; there’s absolutely no reason to do so. I’m just skeptical about the whole medical industry,which ruined my health with their “cures”.

          Oh,and I am NOT putting myself out there as the ultimate expert on all things medical/scientific/pharmaceutical, ad nauseum.Nor am I “practicing without a license.”. You’re insulting me, with these accusations,and getting way too personal.Thank you!

        • lisalisa12years July 20, 2019 at 11:09 am

          When logging into the Floxie Hope page there’s a lot of information about the esommes ( spelt wrong sorry) Look at what they’re saying.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 20, 2019 at 11:21 am

          Thank you,Lisalisa12,I wasn’t aware of these articles.Quite interesting;I’ll read them as soon as I have time to spend on it.

  8. L July 20, 2019 at 1:46 pm Reply

    Thanks Lisa Lisa. It does mention using exosomes to fight cancer. The accompanying article is also over 3 years old. I imagine quite a lot has been done in that time.

  9. Jessica Williams July 21, 2019 at 3:20 pm Reply

    I am a new floxie. At 71, I was given Cipro for a mild UTI, in January 2019. My life has changed so much.

    • L July 21, 2019 at 3:54 pm Reply

      So sorry. That is infuriating on a number of levels. First, the doctor is completely out of touch since there was a warning a couple years ago that these drugs should NOT be used for simple UTIs. Second, there was ALREADY a warning for people over age 65. This doctor needs to be sued, and maybe the pharmacy too, depending on what state you are in and whether or not you were given a consult.

      I would start on Magnesium. I took up to 800 mg for the first year. Good choices are L-threonate, orotate, taurate or glycinate. Avoid all NSAIDS, steroids, fluoride and any meats that might contain antibiotics. Also a good idea to start on a good probiotic. There is also a lot of other good information on this site. I will post something from Lisa, the site’s founder. Meanwhile if it were me, I would find another doctor (preferably integrative) or ND and sue this one. https://floxiehope.com/2015/10/12/im-floxed-now-what/

    • Barbara Arnold July 21, 2019 at 10:04 pm Reply

      Everything L said I agree with 100% I was 71 years when I got floxed over four and a half years ago. I tried to sue then but the warnings wern’t what they are now. So when you feel better it’s something to seriously think about.
      You are now in a marathon, not a sprint, so just keep going until you get there. I was in a wheelchair at one point as I couldn’t walk, but now I would say I am 90% better, some days even 95%.

      • Jessica Williams July 22, 2019 at 10:58 am Reply

        Thanks, Barbara.

        I will look into exosomes, and have already doubled my Magnesium/mangansese intake. I take Reishi mushrooms. My symptoms are severe pains in left rotator cup, joint pain everywhere, inability to sleep on my sides, exhaustion, weakness, nausea, and the feeling I don’t even look the same. I feel like a different woman.

        I am a Jewish Buddhist. I chant the Nicherin Buddhism in Daimoku. I used to be a well-known pianist. Life is never without irony.

        Thank you, everyone for the substantial help. This is when humans are best: when they help each other.


    • Barbara Arnold July 22, 2019 at 10:11 pm Reply

      Jessica…If you want a list from people about what’s helped, here’s mine. I want to emphasize this is MY list and it may or may not help you.
      I am over 4 and a half years floxed and I was 71 years young when it happened, just like you.
      I spent a fortune on different vitamins and minerals in the begining as I was desperate to help myself. I did not notice any changes during that time. I noticed feeling better after the following.
      Ozone Autohemotherapy,
      Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy
      Bone broth
      Magnesium oral and topical. I use Magnesium body butter on my tendons (from Amazon)
      I would recommend CO Q 10 Ubiquinol although I noticed nothing, it felt right and it’s helped others.
      Swimming in the sea, or a pool.
      Resting after listening to my body.
      Taking Kratom when the pain was unbearable.
      CBD oil for insomnia. It reset my body clock. From being awake all night to 7 hours good sleep.
      A positive attitude and not giving up.
      From being in a wheelchair at one point to traveling long haul flights on vacation.
      I still get flares, but not as severe and they last less time.
      I am 90 to 95% better.
      TIME is the key. Nothing will change quickly. For some things change quickly, others take longer. Accepting this will stop the despair.
      Hope this list will help you get started on your research.
      If you are on facebook there are fluroquinolone groups, but be warned some can get you down if you let it.

      • Jessica Williams July 23, 2019 at 12:11 pm Reply

        Thank you immensely. I deeply appreciate the suggestions. I am doing some of them already. Oxygen therapy (hyperbaric). Magnesium, Manganese, CoQ10, Bone Broth, CBD, Cannabis Oil, Nightly Cannabis tea (I know a grower). I also use Hyraulonic acid, Condroitin daily, and hot showers. I ache all over with the flox pain which is quite different than sore muscles.

        My doctor, who I would never sue, because being litigious is not my thing, especially in times of great stress and pain. That’s all I need. Besides, he’s been my doc for 32 years.

        I’m experiencing a time-dilation effect. It’s like being really stoned of hash. Months seem like weeks to me, and my memory is occluded.

        Oh well, as Stan Lee said in the last “Captain Marvel” movie, “Well, the sixties were fun but now I’m paying for it.”

        • L July 23, 2019 at 12:31 pm

          Sounds like you are doing all the right things. (My doctor tried to get me to do hyperbaric, but claustrophobia prevented me.)

          I mentioned suing for two reasons. One it is malpractice and the only way these doctors seem to learn is if it costs them monetarily. Two, I was badly injured and to date it has cost me more than $45,000 since everything that has helped has not been covered by insurance. I just don’t want someone to regret later, after they missed the statute of limitations for filing a suit, that they did not consider their costs.

          If you do not want to sue your doctor, please at least educate him so he doesn’t hurt anyone else. This is malpractice. I can only post one link, but look up fluoroquinolone associated disability and share that with him. Also, here are some letters from doctors, to doctors. I usually print out and take the first two. https://floxiehope.com/2016/05/25/dear-colleague-letters-information-about-fluoroquinolone-toxicity-from-doctors-to-doctors/

        • Barbara Arnold July 23, 2019 at 10:48 pm

          Yes, all that sounds good. Just don’t expect quick fixes. Time is now your main thing. You will find you have ups and downs, good and bad times, but just keep going until you get there. You are doing everything possible to help yourself. Some say a gluten, sugar free diet also helps. For me it made no difference. I don’t eat a lot of gluten or sugar in any form anyway. However others say this and fasting has helped them. I do know that when I eat less or go at least 14 to sixteen hours between eating I feel better. I eat a healthy mediterranian diet veggies salads, meat, fish etc, but no processed foods. I have two weakness’s wine and potatoes in any form, so I know I shouldn’t but I do indulge and to be honest the psychological effect does me good. Some people cannot tolerate alcohol at all and others are sensitive to different foods. I am not one of those people, so I guess I’m one of the lucky ones. Stay strong xx

        • Anna July 24, 2019 at 6:57 am

          I, too, handle alcohol (red wine) well. I can also drink coffee.

      • Madge Hirsch July 25, 2019 at 2:36 am Reply

        Hi Barbara- what brand mag butter do you use? After thinking things were finally improving I have been hit with a really bad relapse and my tendonitis is awful again. Are you suffering a heatwave again? Temps predicted up to 40° here today. Not helped by family visit and the dishwasher conking out! Grrr!

        • Barbara Arnold July 25, 2019 at 3:29 am

          Hi Madge, It’s called ‘ Better You ‘ magnesium skin body butter. I put it on after a shower or at night before bed. Seems to help me. Got it on amazon. Worth a try, sorry your still suffering. Dam antibioctic. You’ll get back again.
          Yep really hot here to 40° odd. I have been swimming every morning about 9.a.m. before the sun is on the pool. I have to say I feel better for it.
          Know what you mean about family visits ha ha. Make them do the washing up.
          Keep cool xx

        • L July 25, 2019 at 9:59 am

          I hope you two are talking in terms of celcius…otherwise i’m jealous. 101 here yesterday, which would be about the same. Bad everywhere. Damn climate change.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 25, 2019 at 3:51 am

          Madge,I think there is no difference between magnesium oil and magnesium butter.In fact,I’d prefer the magnesium oil.I make it myself,by dilluting 660 grams of Zechstein magn. flakes in 6 dl (600 grams) of destilled water.This is way cheaper that buying mag.oil,and it is the real thing! I can only find one trademark of magn.butter: “BetterYou Magnesium Body Butter”. It is only 100 ml,no indication of how much magnesium it contains and it costs € 13,95 ! This is an absurd price.I’d rather mix some fine grinded magnesium salt (Zechtstein is the best) with a good quality coconut oil,but that’s the way I do things to keep life affordable while going for the best quality my money can get.

          It’s quite hot here,as well (38 to 40 degrees,for today). Good thing is,that the warmth may make you get rid of some of the poison(s),by sweating them out :-)) But you’ll have to drink a lot and take care not to deplete your minerals.My main meal,during these warm days,is a nice vegetable soup,with a mix of different vegetables,Himalaya Sea Salt,and quite a bit of Cayenne pepper. :-))

          Strange weather,by the way! Now and then a very hot,but also very short period (just a few days),and then the temperature goes down and we have weeks of cool weather,most of the time grey and cloudy,and with temps that are low for the time of the year,especially in the evenings.And look here: a perfectly round area of showers that doesn’t move (the picture shows the past 3 hours) .Now press the “next 3 hours” button and it moves like the other clouds.It’s there since yesterday,since I noticed it for the first time:


          Oh,why it starts to move in the next 3 hours? Because that is a prediction,based on rules on how clouds act on wind,etc. The past 3 hour presentation is based on the real situation,and my prediction is that that strange round shower area will stay there for another while.Geo engeneering? Noooooooo! Absolutely not. Well,uhhh,maybe ;-))

          Madge,I hope the relapse will live a short life and you’ll be fine,soon.

          Have a nice,warm day.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 25, 2019 at 4:01 am

          Forgot to mention that I have a water destiller (+cheap and high quality destilled water),and my home made magnesium oil contains as much magnesium as the original Zechtstein mag.oil does (ca 31%) ,but it costs me ca. € 6 while the original costs € 49. Quite a differense ;-))

        • Barbara Arnold July 25, 2019 at 10:22 pm

          L that’s positivly cool ha ha

  10. Attsy July 22, 2019 at 12:34 pm Reply

    Hello, has anyone tried to take desogestrel (or do you have any ideas) to decrease the hormonal fluctuation during period and ovulation? I had this thought because I think this might stop the period completely. Unfortunately I am still experiencing bad stomach cramps (when nothing really works) and according to my calendar it usually occurs around ovulation and period. I am asking about your opinion because my doctor simply doesn’t know. This was actually my idea but as I was floxed I am unsure about the potential harms (like stroke….)? Thank you.

  11. Dee July 25, 2019 at 2:45 pm Reply

    Barbara, L and Madge You were all very helpful in giving me advice about going through an endoscope and colonoscopy and how you did under sedation. I had my scope in mid June and was sedated with propofol for about 30 min. I am happy to report that I did ok with the sedation although it took me 3/4 days to get my bearings again. The scope results were ok too other then esophagitis from my acid reflux so I have to try and heal that. My Doc wanted me back on PPIs which I weaned off of when I got floxed. For now I am taking Zantac for acid reflux but trying to find more natural ways to cure it?? I am 2 years out from being floxed and still dealing with morning gut issues ( like morning IBS) and still waking up a little earlier then I would like!! Would you say that you kept on improving after the 2 year mark?? I feel probably 80/85% recovered but am hoping for some of these “lingering” symptoms to finally disappear!! I’m hoping to hear that healing seems to continue after 2 years out since you all are further out in your recovery!! Thank you again for your supportive advice in tackling the colonoscopy/endoscopy as it did calm me and take some of the fear factor away!!!

    • L July 25, 2019 at 9:01 pm Reply

      Glad the whole colonoscopy thing went well. As for the zantac, it is not something I would personally take, and it turns out most people have too little, not too much stomach acid. Are you seeing an ND or integrative doctor? Very early on my gut was destroyed, and I was taking enzymes, HCL Betaine (which is tricky to use without help) and DGL licorice and of course probiotics. I was on the betaine HCL for over a year before finally weaning off, but again it’s tricky to know how much to use. You build up using it with protein meals until you get a “warm sensation” and I felt like I never got that. But I think I had built up to around 9 or 10 early on. The problem with zantac (aside from the fact that you might not even have too much stomach acid) is that it can lower magnesium levels, and can actually worsen your situation. I found this interview on it on Mercola’s site. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/01/joseph-mercola/before-you-swallow-another-prilosec-zantac-or-pepsid-ac/

    • Barbara Arnold July 25, 2019 at 10:35 pm Reply

      Dee, glad you got through it okay, your stronger than you think. I agree with L and all her advice. It’s hard to put a time thing on any of us as we are all different, I was doing quite well around two years in, slowly, but then came different relapses, up and down like a yo yo. The worst was after a fall where I compressed my spine and piled on the weight due to inactivity, which even to this day is still there. However, during that time I had lots of times where life was good and it doesn’t mean you won’t slowly improve either. In November it will be five years for me and I’m 90 to 95% better. Fingers crossed I keep going in the right direction. Just stay positive and don’t stress yourself. You are doing everything to help yourself get there. xxxx

      • Madge Hirsch July 26, 2019 at 10:20 am Reply

        At last it’s cooler today and we had a short storm which brought some much needed rain. No use getting my stepson to wash up and I doubt the grandchildren have ever washed up. . It would just need doing again ! I am making them eat out. New dishwasher still has not arrived after the delivery liars said it would come Thurs. Now they are saying next Tues. The truth is that half of their sraff are on holiday and the other half are probably on a go slow because of the heatwave! You are lucky you can swim. Chlorine makes me worse. How is your husband doing?

        • Barbara Arnold July 26, 2019 at 10:20 pm

          Flipin Eck Madge, they sound spoilt. I have to say mine are great to help and they even cook for me which is great. Otherwise there would be no vacancies here lol.
          My husband is starting to eat like a hog now and doing well. His disability is, he has no muscle in his right shoulder so it has dropped and its lower than the left one. This is from the operation on his neck. However he thought he would not be able to swim again, but he can, which is great as he thought he would be swimming in circles ha ha. He has two belly buttons now, as the other was from the feeding tube he had in his stomache. He’s going to tell people his shoulder and other hole in his stomache is from fighting in the Afgan and gulf war. Not sure he’ll get away with that, but hey ho. Thanks for asking.
          I often wonder if our relapses are due to anything we have eaten, drank, or done. I have long thought is it just the nature of the beast ?? and part of the healing process. Every time I have had a relapse I can’t pin it down to anything different that I’ve done. The only thing I’ve noticed with me is, it happens in extreem stress, like when my husband was going through hell with his treatment. I can remember visiting him one day in hospital and as I was walking towards the entrance I actually came to a full stop as the pain in my legs and the exhaustion I felt was so strong I could not move another step for about five minutes. I know Lisa practiced mindfulness which she said helped her a lot. I am quite an expressive person who feels strongly about some things and I often wish I was the calm quiet sort as it does me no good to express my feelings so strongly. But that’s me. We need proper research desperatly to find out more about these relapses and what the causes are or if it’s just a brain thing. Christ they have a lot to answer for.
          Madge I have found Kratom is amazing for pain for me, but not only that it makes me feel ‘normal’ for a couple of days. I make my own capsules as it tastes foul to me. I always have it on standby in case I get that unbearable pain and I only use it for that. Theres a whole movement in America trying to fight off ‘big pharma’ and their cronies that want it stopped. Anything that works and helps people, those bas…ds try and stop it.
          Stay cool xx

    • Madge Hirsch July 26, 2019 at 10:11 am Reply

      Sorry to be negative but not for me. I’m four years out nearly to the day and in the middle of a bad relapse. I did think I was getting better till about a month ago and have no idea really what set it off. Some suckling pig I ate at a friends 60th birthday meal? Two cups of tea the following week when on a short trip ? A dental treatment that needed an anaesthetic jab? Who knows? But symptoms that were waning in intensity ( mainly tendon pain) are back with a vengeance and some that had disappeared altogether for over a year have come back. None of it is really debilitating – just painful and annoying. I have learned to live with the pain and pace myself.
      Really glad to hear the colonoscapy went well and there is nothing sinister going on. I get acid reflux sometimes but found it much worse after all three colonoscapies. It took 3/4months to calm down each time. I’m sure it is caused by the prep deranging the digestive system.

    • Barbara Arnold July 26, 2019 at 9:49 pm Reply

      Dee, I was thinking have you ever fasted ? Even say from 6p.m. until 6p.m. the next day. I have noticed when I don’t eat for a number of hours, only drinking water I feel much better, qbut I was thinking it may help your gut. Others have said that it has helped to.

      • L July 26, 2019 at 11:02 pm Reply

        I did a 3 day fast. water only. It was rough, but I felt so much better. 3 days is supposed to reset your gut and your immune system. But I would start out like you said with smaller fasts. (I started by doing intermittent fasting ….16 hours between dinner and my next meal.

        • Dee July 27, 2019 at 7:41 am

          Barbara and L. Thanks for the tip on fasting! I might try a one day fast just to see if I feel better!! L, As far as the Zantac goes that was actually an alternative to my Doc wanting me to take a PPI like nexium to heal my esphagitis. I have had acid reflux for years and even have Barrett’s so I have to be extremely cautious not to let it get worse. I was on a PPI for 10 years and actually weaned off when I got floxed. I was aware that my problem may be actually low acid (and probably is). I lost 50 lbs when I got floxed but have gained 40 back which was more then I needed back and I think the extra weight stirred up my acid reflux again?? Anyway, my GI Doc wanted to rescope my throat in 8 weeks to see if it had healed with the Zantac. I started taking it a couple of weeks ago and didn’t like being on it so going to look for a more natural way to fix acid reflux like celery juice, ACV, aloe vera? Whatever I can come up with?? I think I will postpone the re scope to give me more time to heal naturally? I will make an appt with my GI to see what he thinks? He actually is also a functional Doc so I would think he would support that?? I don’t think he uses much of his practice for functional medicine but mainly his GI practice. Losing some weight would help me too!! I was so concerned about losing 50 lbs in 3-4 months of being floxed and was happy that I was healing enough to gain weight again but of course now I have too much weight!! Never satisfied!! Anyway we shall see. I am actually experiencing a relapse of waking up extra early again and running back and forth to the bathroom. It had started to get a lot better for the last 2-3 months but I was extremely stressed about my scope and my results for the month of June and I’m think that might have triggered this relapse??? Although it took a couple weeks to hit me after the scope?? I have cut back some on my mag too so that could be a possibility? I take about 300-400 mgs a day still though? As we all know these relapses are a mystery and I hope mine is short lived as it already has been going on 2 weeks! I think the stress might have triggered it???

        • L July 27, 2019 at 10:05 am

          While zantac is not a PPI it still has its share of nasty side effects. IT is an H2 histamine blockers (interestingly, those are one of the treatments suggested for mast cell disorder, which has ties to fluoroquinolone toxicity.) You may very well be one of those people who actually does have too much stomach acid, and there are several different ways to test for it. I will include a link below. Of course if you have too little stomach acid, the zantac will only make it worse. It also (because of lowering acid) puts you at increased risk of hip fractures if taken long term, since it makes it more difficult to absorb calcium….or any other nutrients. https://drjockers.com/5-ways-test-stomach-acid-levels/

        • Dee July 27, 2019 at 10:21 am

          L. Thanks for the info on testing your stomach acid!!! The home test with the baking soda looked interesting!!! I’ve been wanting to test my acid levels!!! So appreciate the info!! Now to get over this little relapse….Argh!!!!

        • Barbara Arnold July 27, 2019 at 9:18 pm

          L…when you did the three day water fast, you said it was rough. Can you tell me what you experienced ?

        • L July 27, 2019 at 11:25 pm

          Well the first day wasn’t really bad, and I was actually surprised that the hunger kind of went away. Hard to remember now, but sometime later during the second day I just started to feel almost flu like. And by the third day I felt really weak, and just kind of stayed on the sofa all day. I think I might do a one day fast again, but probably not three. I was glad I did it though because it is supposed to have health benefits, but it wasn’t pleasant! And you need to be careful about breaking the fast. I had read to have watered down juice or broth, then a couple hours later, something else very light like a piece of fruit. Then a couple hours later something else small, like yogurt. Then the next day just eat light meals. About 12 hours before the fast ended I just couldn’t stop thinking about orange juice. I knew I would have watered down OJ as my first thing. It tasted so good! And it was really just 1/2 juice and 1/2 water.

        • Barbara Arnold July 28, 2019 at 1:36 am

          Thanks L. That makes sense. I don’t think I could do a three day one. I can do 18 hrs okay. I remember when I went gluten and dairy sugar free for the first time ever, I was really weak and could hardly lift my arms up to do my hair. It did get better and I felt better. Now its gone to pot but I feel fine. I actually don’t eat much gluten or sugar anyway. I do like my cheese though. Maybe I’m lucky as I don’t seem to re act to most foods or drinks. That’s why I wonder if it’s a brain thing if I have a relapse as I don’t change anything I normally do. I am struggling to lose weight at the moment even though I only eat small meals. That could also be the added thing of age grrrrrŕ. I swim every day, but I know people who eat like a horse don’t exercise and are really slim. It again is down to our individuality and our genes just like when we got floxed. You sound much better, so I hope it continues.

        • L July 28, 2019 at 9:28 am

          I too eat very little but seem to struggle to keep my weight where it is. After the Cipro I lost 1/4 of my body weight in about 3 weeks and was emaciated. I struggled for a year to get the weight back on. (Never had THAT problem before.) But now I am back to my old self as far as trying to keep from putting it on. I am slim but it takes very little for pounds to creep back. I was tested and am allergic to no foods. (Thought for sure I had a shellfish allergy). And I don’t think I am sensitive to gluten but avoid it anyway. I do seem to get more congested, an issue that plagues me, from dairy…but not oddly enough from goat dairy. So on those rare occasions where I buy cheese, I buy goat cheese. But I use almond milk, almond based yogurt, goat kefir. I did the fast because of an issue that continues to plague me, and a couple doctors had suggested a supervised fast. But that costs a coupe thousand dollars to go to the place that does them. Since I read that a 3 day fast resets your immune system, I thought maybe I could at least eliminate that as a cause. It didn’t help my issue, but it did seem to do good things for my gut!

  12. L July 29, 2019 at 9:26 pm Reply

    I just came from a very sobering talk on the harm from wireless technology, given by Attorney Dafna Tachova, formerly computer and communications officer in the Israeli Army. There were moments when I though “she could be talking about flq toxicity, when she discussed the health effects, the burying of studies and evidence, the complicit “protection” agencies.

    Studies directly linking to cancer and other illnesses have been buried for decades. There are already millions who have experienced health issues even before 5G, which is just pure insanity. We are exposed to 80 quintillion (that’s 18 zeros) times the amount of this type of radiation than we should be exposed to. If I could move I would move to a place that did hot have wifi. If I had children (who are most at risk for injury) I would do everything in my power to see that their school used grounded technology and that they had as little exposure as possible. For now, I limit cell phone use, turn my laptop on airplane mode when not in use, and contact local politicians urging them to keep 5g away. This technology can injure any bodily organ and system. I will post more information when it is sent to me, but meanwhile, this is the organization she represents. https://wearetheevidence.org/

  13. selcem July 29, 2019 at 9:47 pm Reply


    did anyone try “povidone iodine” as antiseptic. I had its mouthwash during a teeth operation and then I started to have dizziness, nausea, headache. I read this chemical has neurotoxicity.
    Oh God, so should we stay away from all kinds of antibiotics/antivirals/antiseptics?


    • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 12:20 am Reply

      Hi Selcem,there are lots of safe antibacterial substances.Colloïdal Silver is a good,and very safe one,if of high quality andused in a responsibal way.A lot of info on CS (Coll.Silver) can be found on Pubmed.Then there are herbs like oregano (-oil),Salvia,and others.For an antiseptic mouth rinse I use CS,or 1,5 % hydrogen peroxide.The hydrogen peroxide is the main antiseptic substance in commercial mouth rinse fluids.

      I’ve never heard or read about the use of povidone iodine(here it’s known as Betadine) for oral desinfection in dentistry; hydrogen peroxide or chlorhexidine are used in commercial (oral rinse) products.Betadine is used for little wounds of the skin;I’ve no idea if the symptoms you had were related to this antiseptic;those might have been caused by the stress,and pain during the operation.Did you have an anesthetic? That’s one of the things many Floxies don’t tolerate. I hope you’re better,now.

      • selcem July 30, 2019 at 12:24 am Reply

        Hello Henk,

        the operation was to clean tooth stones, because they all covered my teeth. I did not take anesthesy.
        Henk, may I ask you if you heard about Rifaximin. For my SIBO, food allergies and bad bacteria at colon, doctor prescribed me this antibiotic which will stay in intestines, not enter into bloodstream.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 12:48 am

          Selcem,I think the best way to treat gut problems is by probiotics and a diet,not by antibiotics (which might be the cause of this problems,to begin with). I don’t know if you’re still breastfeeding your little girl.If you do,try to avoid every (synthetic) medicine,where possible.

          This is what I found on Rifaximin:

          “Tell your doctor if you are pregnant or breastfeeding.” This warning indicates that there is no,or not enough research done to know for sure if this antibiotic might ,or might not enter the bloodstream,breastmilk,or fetus.So;your doc gave you wrong information,here.

          “Rifaximin should not be given to a child younger than 12 years old.” This indicates that it’s not safe for young children.

          “Common side effects may include:

          nausea,headache, dizziness. ”

          Do these symptoms sound familiar? Those are exactly the ones you mentioned,so,they are probably caused by the Rifaximin,not by the Betadin.Here is the info:


        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 12:55 am

          Hello Henk,

          unfortunately probiotics are not coming good to me. I probably disturbed my small instestine with sauerkraut, and probably let probiotics overgrowth there. So, whenever I take probiotics, I encounter more bloating, gas and digestive issues. You know I already tried oregano oil, which forced my livers a lot with allergy on whole body.
          There are some other natural herbs like berberine and neem and allicin suggested for sibo. Do you think I should try them before rifaximin?
          I did not take yet rifaximin.


        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 1:58 am

          Hi Selcem,there are lots of different probiotics,and after an AB course in 2004 I used more than a few of those.It cost me a lot of money and it didn’t help a bit.

          A while ago I read a lot of good things and success stories about a spore probiotic;not the bacterium itself,but a spore form,which can pass the stomach without being harmed by the stomach acid.This probiotic really works for me.The bacterium is named Bacillus Coagulans,and the trade name is Lactospore.I buy mine from Bulkpowders;they are quite cheap and deliver to the Netherlands (where I live),and I on their website I found that they deliver to Turkey as well.


          I’ve ordered there several times,and different products,and untill now I’m satisfied with the quality and the shipping.If only they could use smaller containers for their pills and caps;those are,most of the time,way to big for the content,and made of plastic.

          I read somewhere that a few people react different to some of the probiotic bacteria in probiotics.And the same happens when using live probiotics like Sauerkraut.Lactospore might be a blessing for you,but there is no guarantee it will.But it might help to balance your gut flora,and the B. Coagulans should leave the gut within 3 days,not collonizing there.

        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 2:13 am

          Thanks a lot Henk. I will ask this probiotic to my gastro doctor. May I ask you whether you took any medical antibiotics since floxed? I know there are many side effects for rifaximin, but I discussed with few floxies who tolerated it well. But for sure, it does not guarantee no adverse reaction. Considering I reacted to even oregano oil, or povidone iodine.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 2:32 am

          Selcem,I didn’t take any antibiotics since being floxed,and I hope to not need any AB’s for the rest of my life.I had two AB courses in my whole life,and both had desastrous effects on my life and health.I really hope I will never need that poison again,and will only use a synthetic AB in a case of a life-threatening problem,after safer options failed.

          Thinking about taking an antibiotic (Rifaximin) to threat the problems,caused by another AB,on a gut that’s in trouble,with an already damaged gut flora,makes me feel very uncomfortable.Might you still breastfeed your child,remember;there’s no,or not enough research done on the Rifaximin entering the bloodstream,and no info on the safety for breastfed children,despite whatever your doc told you.

        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 2:37 am

          I am not breastfeeding anymore. But, since my state is not progressing I need to do smt to improve my intestines. Due to malabsorption, I lost many muscles. So, I will probably try 1 pill and according to result, if makes me bad I will try to get berberine, neem, allicin.
          I can tell you my life conditions does not allow me much for slow recovery. My husband is divorcing me, I have a small daughter and I have to work. So, if I will live, I have to improve more at least to maintain my life on my own.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 3:11 am

          I’m sorry to hear about your husband devorcing you.Can’t understand how a man can leave his wife and daughter because she got sick!

          I have no experience with Berberine,and the only experience I have with Allicin is in it’s natural form (I love garlic,and onions;only my social life prohibits me from eating those too often).

          My only experience with Neem is the use of Neem oil as an anti-insecticide. I know that tea,from the leaves,is used in India but I don’t know how effective, or how safe it is.Most of the time the oil (from the seeds) is mentioned, medically,but there’s almost no info about safety,or how to use;you might need advice from an ayurvedic doctor;the only thing I find on it are warnings NOT to use Neem oil orally.

          Take care,Selcem,your health is already so fragile;not a good situation for experiments.And there’s your daughter who needs you!

        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 4:15 am

          Unfortunately yes, he leaves me because I am sick and look bad, can’t do house work and not joyful anymore. Anyway, I have no choice other than continue to try for healing. Else, he may get my daughter also from me.

          I will see another ımmune doctor and ask for help also. But as I said, I seem have no choice other than rifaximin, unfortunately.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 5:25 am

          What’s left of the “in good,and in bad times” ? Or was it,in his case: “in good,and in bed times”?

          I hope the Rifaximin will help you,and not make things worse.Avoiding allergens should help,too.Things like wheat,and other gluten-rich carbs,and (cow) milk are the first things to try (if elimination works),but for many those are the basic food and drink,and not easy to replace because most people are so used to it.

        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 7:18 am

          Within floxed state and this difficulty you realize better who is really good to you and who doesn’t care. There are some kind and good people like you who try to help on someone that you never saw, and some people even from family who try not to get in touch due to this sick state. I just wish from God, these kindness of you will be appreciated and rewarded.
          Thanks for your help and good wishes.

        • Sheila rogers July 30, 2019 at 10:40 am

          I know of what you speak, my relationship with my husband has been touchy ever since I started having symptoms from being floxed….his whole attitude sucks….and just this weekend I finally pushed hard enough to get an answer to why he is so mean verbally and he admitted that I am now “sick” and can’t do the things I used to and he’s upset by that fact, not that I’m sick – but that I can’t do the things he wants me to do, go places that he wants to go etc. due to this fatigue and joint pain…….doesn’t seem to matter that I feel like crap nope just that this negatively affects HIS life…….he doesn’t handle anyone’s illness in a proper kind manner and threatened several times to divorce me due to me having to have my leg amputated due to a broken hip back in my early 20’s so he knows that he has to have a better excuse than the fact I’m sick……..but it hurts and doesn’t help with the mental state that one has to have in order to shake this toxicity off to do anything productive, having the added pressure of loved ones treating you like crap when you already feel like crap is like the last straw……..my heart goes out to ya’!!!

        • selcem July 30, 2019 at 10:19 pm

          Sorry for you Sheila. It is very sad that with all this pains and inability to do many physical activities, family members even my mom, my brother does not believe at me. I am sure same happens to you except your husband’s attitude. My husband also only care his life, and he always complain how badly his life effected. Indeed, it is us who is suffering from all pains, allergies, mental issues, etc. It is very unfair that we can’t complain as them.
          I hope you are at least able to care yourself and do your own work without in need of someone. That’s my wish for myself. To cook, to do minimum of housework and handle my kid alone.

        • Sheila rogers July 31, 2019 at 9:59 am

          yes I understand and to be able to do basic household chores again without full exhaustion at the end would be great. You’ve got this! you can do this you sound very determined, hang in there.

          Barbara thank you yes we do deserve better, and yes I thought about the being on my own but that ship has sailed…..it is not a viable option anymore and we do love each other but he’s an a$$ when it comes to illness I’ve had to deal with that before…..but it is a lonely journey when you feel horrible to always be the only person to pick yourself up and motivate yourself through the pain

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 1, 2019 at 12:18 am

          Hi Selcem,thanks for your very friendly words;I appreciate them!

          I know how disappointing it is to be let down by the people,nearest to you.I’ve lived through that kind of experiences way too often,and it ruined my overall trust in people.From your story,and those from some other women,here,on FloxieHope,one would guess it’s allways men,leaving their wives for a better opportunity,but I’ve experienced the same with two out of three relations.

          There is no difference between men and women;both are,most of the time,more or less opportunistic.There are really good people,too,but it’s really hard to find them among so much people,pretending to be “your best friend”,family included.Realizing this made me very disappointed in humanity,but,on the other side,it made me appreciate those who are real friends all the more.

          Don’t worry too much about your husband,leaving you. As long as he pays alimony,you’re probably better of,on your own.One person less to take care of. I guess that,with his kind of mentallity (and I know a bit about most turkish men,and their idea of “women’s place”,regarding right’s and duties),you will have more time to take care of you,and your little girl.

          The invisibility of being floxed is an extra burden upon floxies;most people react by thinking:”Nothing wrong with him/her;it’s all between the ears”. Most of them aren’t even willing to read the information,you offer them,or will do a www-search on the subject,themselves (and this goes for most doctor’s,as well !!).This lack of interest on other people’s problems is global.How nice it is to share nice things,nice times,but when things change for one of both,friendship crumbles down.

          Value the few friends you have,and take the others,including your family members,for what they really are:people,you know,and you can trust to a certain level.And share your love with your little baby;she needs you, and you need her as well;she’s your best friend !

          I wish both of you all the luck you need to live a happy life !

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 1, 2019 at 1:02 am

          Oh,forgot this. When you ask me where your best chances are,for improving your health (and I guess,you’ve understood the importance of a good magnesium supplement,by now,and use one),I would go for the Lactospore probiotic. You’ll first have to improve your gut health because it’s the base of your overall health.When your gut is a mess,you can use every supplement that might be usefull,but probably with little or no possitive effect.


          This probiotic works best if taken with Inuline ,which is the preferable food for probiotics It’s called a prebiotic,and is neccesary for probiotics to be efficient). I buy both from the Bulkpowder webshop because they’re the cheapest source I found and the quality is good,and shipping is,too.In fact,this is,probably,the cheapest probiotic I’ve ever used,and the only one that really worked for me.I hope it works for you,too;you need it!

        • selcem August 1, 2019 at 2:06 am

          Hello Henk,

          I read Lactospore probiotic is producing lactic acid which is not good for my SIBO. Previously, like sauerkraut includes, I tried solely Lactobacillus plantarum and it effected me negatively also; headache, brain fog and nausea. The problem with SIBO is also, they can’t detect which bacteria, probiotic is excess in small intestine. So, solution seems antimicrobial/antibiotics either natural or medical.
          Regarding magnesium, I just ordered MagEnhance which contains Magnesium L-threonate from US. I will start it and Collagen from Ancient Nutritions after completing SIBO treatment considering absorbtion will be better.
          Probably probiotic and inuline will be safer to be used after treatment also.

          Regarding people’s and doctors’ inattentive and denying attitude is really unacceptable according to my way of thinking. I am an engineer, and I do backup of backups while working on softwares or hardwares not to interrupt operation for seconds. But doctors and medicine industry employees who are contributing to production and delivery of those poisons do not care to lives of people and use us as test object. How long history do these chemical medicals have and how do they easily deliver those without knowing long-term consequences. Whichever doctor I saw they are saying these affects may occur very rare, they obviously don’t know what is statistics at all. If it was that much rare, how would these many people would exist at these web sites.

          And all these issues can’t be understood by a normal person who don’t experience these. Once my doctor who gave me tavanic told me said “even if you would take cyanide you would heal or die”. He does not know anything about drug he is prescribing. In medicine school, they are firstly taught “Either help or do not harm the patient!” , they were obviously did not understand it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 1, 2019 at 5:24 am

          B. coagulans is often marketed as Lactobacillus sporogenes or a ‘sporeforming lactic acid bacterium’ probiotic, but this is an outdated name due to taxonomic changes in 1939. Although B. coagulans does produce L+lactic acid, the bacterium used in these products is not a lactic-acid bacterium, as Bacillus species do not belong to the lactic acid bacteria. By definition, lactic acid bacteria (Lactobacillus, Bifidobacterium) do not form spores. Therefore, using the name Lactobacillus sporogenes is scientifically incorrect.”

          More on SIBO and fermeted foods:


        • L August 1, 2019 at 9:08 am

          Every time I hear the word rare I want to scream. Of course, they are just repeating the nonsense put out by the Bayer and J & J and the FDA. Dr Charles Bennett, a drug safety researcher at the University of South Carolina extrapolated from the FDAs own reporting numbers. “The FDA gets about one percent of all reports,” said Bennett, who argues if you take the 3,000 deaths already reported, the actual number of deaths is closer to 300,000.”. That would also put injuries in the millions. I think both these figures are probably very low. This is from four years ago. I am guessing the stats of reporting are even lower worldwide, and I see posts from victims in the Netherlands, Germany, Spain, Canada, Pakistan, Hungary…you name it. I suspect when most people hear “rare” they think maybe a few people have been injured (and MAYBE one or two deaths.) Not these staggeringly high numbers.

        • selcem August 1, 2019 at 11:36 am

          Hello L,

          you are totally right. Also, doctors are not accepting that we are experiencing side effects, so these events are not reported to drug companies. Which makes indeed the real statistics much more higher than noted at prospectus.
          It is also very foolish of them saying, I am prescribing this drug to many patients and I never heard of these side effects. So, either they are lying or patients who are affected can not recognize the source of issue.
          What I would really like to do is to give one box of quinolones to doctor prescribing it at single shot and then let’s see how rare these effects will show up! That would be fair.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 1, 2019 at 1:21 am

          Some science on Bacillus coagulans,taken together with a prebioticum like Inulin (polysaccharides),and the benefits:


          ” This shows that consumption of BC30 “(Bacillus coagulans) and subsequent use of prebiotics (Inulin) resulted in elevated populations of beneficial genres of bacteria as well as organic acid production.

        • selcem August 2, 2019 at 3:46 am

          Hello Henk,

          I took one dose of Rifaximin (200 mg) today and pain on my lower hips started, with headache. I will see what happens more until evening. Do you think I should stop taking it?
          This drug remains in intestines but it has many side effects on whole body.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 2, 2019 at 10:19 am

          I cann’ot advise you further on Rifaximin than I already did. I cannot find any proof of Rifaximin staying in the intestines,and I really doubt that.Getting adverse reactions in other parts of the body seems to proof it does enter the bloodstream,I guess. Ask your doctor where you can find proof of Rifaximin nót entering the bloodstream; I’m very curious if he can show any evidence of his claim.

        • selcem August 2, 2019 at 11:49 am

          Thanks Henk, I will probably not take further doses after 200 mg pill. I already checked some articles about possible absorption in case of liver problems. Also, it is said minimal absorption not zero absorption. I started headache and body weakness even with single dose, so it seems not safe drug.
          I know low usage may cause resistance to drug but I will probably try all other alternatives. Like berberine, allicin, ozone, etc.

        • selcem August 6, 2019 at 10:46 pm

          Hello Henk,

          I am continuing Rifaximin to find some healing and my doctor ecouraged me about this drug will stay in intestines. I have no another solution for now. My husband left home, so I have to heal somehow. According to results of Rifaximin, I will retrieve Allicin or Berberine drugs from abroad. I wish from God at least rifaximin womt damage me. I completed 4 days already.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 7, 2019 at 2:33 am

          Selcem,I think that,after the Rifaximin,you’d better focus on repopulating your guts with healthy bacteria,in stead of using even more,although it being natural,antibiotics.

          “My doctor ecouraged me about this drug will stay in intestines.”Well,you,yourself,found info as well,that there is no real proof of this claim.And how about your headache and other symptoms of adverse reactions? These point to the Rifaximin,effectively entering your bloodstream,I suppose.

          Try to drink more (water);this might reduce the headache.And I would try to find a good quality Probiotic,and Inuline,to reenforce the remaining gut flora,in stead of doing even more damage to it.

        • selcem August 7, 2019 at 4:03 am

          I got ther-biotic complete probiotic from Klaire labs. I will start it when completing this rifaximin.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 7, 2019 at 4:32 am

          I’ve read many reviews of satisfied users,so,I guess it is a good product,but too many complaints about shipping.It should be shipped in an icepack,but many sellers don’t:


          If not,it should work still as expected but keep it in the refrigeration after having received the package.It will be expired sooner when not shipped in an icepack.

        • Henk Noordhuizen July 30, 2019 at 2:12 am

          Here is a very critical reviewer of probiotics.On B.Coagulans he is quite possitive,but would like to see more research done.He does not recommend the multi-spore probiotics that entered the market recently;too much unknown factors,and most spore bacteria used in those “multi’s” are soil bacteria,with unknown risks.

          He did an extensive research on the literature,regarding B.Coagulans,and that indicates it is safe.In the used doses,that is; you experienced,yourself that even eating way to much of the natural probiotic Sauerkraut can give nasty results.


        • Barbara Arnold July 30, 2019 at 9:38 pm

          Selcem, Sheila,….You both deserve better. If someone treats you like that when you need them most, are the most sefish kind of people ever. You are better off on your own.

    • L July 30, 2019 at 9:41 am Reply

      I’ with Henk re the oil or oregano (get organic) and colloidal silver. I have used oil of oregano to treat flu, sinus infection, it even helps shorten the duration of a cold. I use colloidal silver topically, but have also used it in a nebulizer. Lisa posted a list of “safer” antibiotics on here somewhere if you do a search. I believe a z pack was one, but try to find the list. They would be an absolute last resort for me now.

      • selcem August 6, 2019 at 10:50 pm Reply

        Hello L,

        oil of oregano caused serious allergy and tendon pain on me. Also, it is said to damage liver. MY allergy on whole body shows it also. Currently I am continuing rifaximin, it causes headache, tingling at feet and hands, weakness but I am trying to complete treatment. There is no allicin, berberine and neem drugs in my country, I will try to get them according to results with rifaximin.

        • L August 7, 2019 at 8:42 am

          The liver damage comes only when taken in high doses. Used as directed and for periods up to 10 days it is not an issue; but obviously if you think you had an allergic reaction then you wouldn’t want to use it.

        • selcem August 7, 2019 at 11:18 pm

          Hello L, indeed it gave me reaction like below, naturopath doctor told it is detox. But it took few months it to pass. All other doctors told it was allergy, cant be such detox


        • Henk Noordhuizen August 8, 2019 at 1:32 am

          Öregano oil:” Naturopath doctor told it is detox. All other doctors told it was allergy,”

          Cipro and other FQ’s: “Naturopath doctor told it is FQ-poisoning. All other doctors told it was allergy,and FQ’s are perfectly safe”,

        • Sheila rogers August 8, 2019 at 12:24 pm

          I know the last time I went in my doctor said that she wasn’t going to prescribe cipro for me anymore I asked why and she got a horrible look on her face and said “oh we are hearing horrible stories about what’s it’s doing to people” so at least she was aware I haven’t talked to her about my symptoms I haven’t had time, I just found this site a couple months ago and that was in the midst of moving so I intend to set up with a different doctor in this area and get down to brass tacks as to what to do that he/she can monitor……..and rule out any other issues that might be underlying…….I suspect it’s all cipro poisoning but we shall see…..

        • L August 8, 2019 at 12:55 pm

          That’s good to hear. Wish that knowledge was more wide-spread. I would urge you, when searching for a new doctor, to find an integrative one. They will be far more aware and wont automatically reaching for the RX pad for everything.

  14. Don M August 2, 2019 at 5:50 am Reply

    Have you seen this article? Repositioning of fluoroquinolones from antibiotic to anti-cancer agents: An underestimated truth https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0753332218370689?fbclid=IwAR06HrTRcl3syjR0762fXAWaaclCiB54_diGdwh-er8XINqwVhBc-G-4r1Y

    I wonder how many doctors are paying any attention to this.

    • L August 2, 2019 at 7:03 am Reply

      They have already used them as cancer drugs in the past. This is odd. This article seems out of date. In fact , Lisa wrote about them as chemo drugs several years ago, and if you do a search you can find a number of studies. https://www.hormonesmatter.com/cipro-levaquin-avelox-fluoroquinolones-chemo-drugs/

      • Don M August 4, 2019 at 11:45 am Reply

        Granted. There have been many articles about Fluoroquinolone antibiotics actually being chemotherapy drugs. BUT….. Do you suppose that there is an overdue awakening going on now?

        • L August 4, 2019 at 1:27 pm

          I wish, Don…

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 12, 2019 at 12:53 pm Reply

      Hi Don,thank you for this very,very interesting article. Not only does it tell more about the mentality of those evil alchemists,and the fact that it’s all for the money (the first part of the article),but,further on in the article it shows the extreme damage FQ’s do to human cells,cancer cells ánd healthy cells.They knew about the damage,done to mitochondria and DNA,probably from the time Cipro (the worst!) and other FQ’s were launched as cancer chemo,failed,and were repositioned as antibiotics,but they never admitted that fact to the FQ-victims.

      Now that more and more people know about the dangers of FQ’s and try to avoid them,or refuse to use them,sales are decreasing and they need other indications to save their profits.They also want to make it even more “effective” for cancer treatment (“Derivatives and salt complexes of fluoroquinolones are highly effective anticancer molecules than parent molecule.”).

      They also refer to Thalidomide (here sold as Softenon,untill banned),and it’s successfull repositioning,although they admit that “Tragically, however, with its renewed use children are again being born with thalidomide-induced deformities, particularly in Brazil.”.Well,Bazil is far from their beds.:


      That is how Science Based Medicine works: attack all bacteria,and hope that the good ones survive while the others die. Attack all cells,and hope that the good ones survive and the bad ones (the cancer cells) die. I’m impressed! Real science at work!Like throwing a handgranate in your sleeping room to kill that one mosquito that keeps you from sleeping!

      Cipro mechanism of action: mitochondrial dysfunction. Well,according to Otto Warburg,this actually IS the cause of cancer:

      ” Warburg hypothesized that cancer growth is caused by tumor cells generating energy (as, e.g., adenosine triphosphate/ATP) mainly by anaerobic breakdown of glucose (known as fermentation, or anaerobic respiration). This is in contrast to healthy cells, which mainly generate energy from oxidative breakdown of pyruvate. Pyruvate is an end product of glycolysis and is oxidized within the mitochondria. Hence, according to Warburg, cancer should be interpreted as a mitochondrial dysfunction.

      Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar.
      — Otto H. Warburg, [14]

      Warburg continued to develop the hypothesis experimentally and gave several prominent lectures outlining the theory and the data.[15]

      Today, mutations in oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes are thought to be responsible for malignant transformation, and the metabolic changes Warburg thought of as causative are now considered to be a result of these mutations.[16]

      However, a recent reevaluation of the data from nuclear/cytoplasm transfer experiments, where nuclei from cancer cells are placed in normal cytoplasm and where nuclei from normal cells are placed in cancer cytoplasm, more strongly supports Warburg’s original theory than the somatic mutation theory for the origin of malignant transformation and cancer ”

      This makes modern medicines like antibiotics a likely cause for cancer and lots of other illnesses. I don’t remember who wrote this,but more and more evidence proves it to be the way “science based medicine” works:

      “First create a problem (modern “medicines”),and then offer a “solution” (modern “medicines”)”.

  15. Don M August 4, 2019 at 11:50 am Reply

    This is interesting. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-brown-rice-good-for-you Interesting because it mentions nutrition in brown rice as a benefit for problems a floxie faces. I like brown rice pasta and find it comforting to know that it has some value.

    • L August 4, 2019 at 1:29 pm Reply

      It does, but sadly it is higher in arsenic, so I would limit its consumption (even organic)

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 5, 2019 at 2:41 am Reply

      Hi Don,L. is right;on the same website I read an article about the high amount of arsenic in rice

      The article about the healthy benefits of rice compares brown rice to white rice,like brown (whole wheat) bread,and pasta’s,to white bread.I’d like to point to an article that compares brown rice to whole wheat,rye, and other cereals,especially those with a low gluten content:


      This article writes about those same health benefits for a number of whole grains,brown rice included,but doesn’t give a real comparison. But when you take the high arsenic level of rice in,I guess most other grains are preferable.

      I really like rye.When cooked,the grains get a very nice,nutty taste,and they are very nutritious. I ate them frequently in the 80’s,when macrobiotic was the trend.Cooking grains as an alternative to potatoes was nice,for a while,but in the end I prefered potatoes and I didn’t like meals with 50 % or more grains.And all the legumes were bad for my social life ;-))

  16. Attila August 5, 2019 at 4:29 am Reply

    Hi! I have noticed that in the evenings my symptoms are relieved, and sometimes I feel like I am old again. No anxiety – or just very small. But during the day i’m anxious again and hissing sound in my head – Why?? And nowadays after 19month of poisoning in the mornings I’m not able to wake up… I don’t drink coffee, and any alcohole since 19 month but still fighting. sometimes I have strange dreams again… Why healing for so long? 😦 oh God

    • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 10:19 am Reply

      To know the full scope of why this symptom and that symptom occurs, you’d have to be a fly on the wall of Bayer or other pharmaceutical companies meeting room and/or laboratory.

  17. Lukasz August 10, 2019 at 2:31 pm Reply

    Greetings. Does anyone have any experience with physician prescribed thyroid hormone supplementation? Specifically, has it worked for anyone here to relieve the countless health problems we’ve acquired especially the neurological stuff like insomnia and shallow sleep?

    What are the pros and cons of using these synthetic hormones? Can they make problems worse? I’ve read about people being helped by them but wanted to see if anyone here has experience using them. I’ve read that high doses are much more beneficial than low ones?

    On top of the thyroid hormone supplement, does anyone use T3 supplementation to help with the conversion of T4 into T3? Any input on the matter is much appreciated.

    • Attila August 10, 2019 at 3:57 pm Reply

      Hi Łukasz! My opinion is that you shouldn’t try anything… As I see after 20months only time will heal us.

      Wiec nie bierz nic bo nigdy nie wiadomo na co ci zaszkodzi. Cierpliwosc i jeszcze raz cierpliwosc!

      • Lukasz August 10, 2019 at 4:36 pm Reply


        I get what you’re saying, but, after 5 years of being mostly housebound, I’m running out of patience. If I was only housebound and not dealing with unrelenting symptoms that make my life hell every minute of every day, I would consider doing nothing at all but these are desperate times in my life. I fear the worse if my fortunes don’t change soon. Every man and woman in this world has a breaking point and I’m getting close to mine. I’m not saying any of this to draw pity, I’m saying this because I’m truly running out of willpower, and when that happens, it’s game over.

        Przepraszam za negatywny tone ale naprawde jusz mam tego wszystkiego dosc.

        • Jessica Williams August 10, 2019 at 6:21 pm

          Every word has power. That power can be harnessed. It can be used for healing, providing the belief is strong enough. Most words here are heavy, sad, divorced from a longed-for, somehow still-desired past.

          Only the future awaits. We all stand at the edge of death. And we all have choice.

          I choose to help others, to be alive, to be strong for my husband. He would die without me. My compassion has taught me that we are not alone, ever. Our presence is vital.

          Every cloud has a silver lining. Love and support

        • Attila August 11, 2019 at 2:12 am

          if I’d hurt anyone’s feelings, I’m sorry. Everyone here is a real warrior, I just relied on my experience. Of course, every body is different.

        • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 12:34 pm


          While I fully respect your opinion, I respectfully disagree with the notion that we should harness our feelings and emotions and that we somehow have a choice towards it all. At least, that’s what I’ve gathered from your post.

          I realize that my words sound heavy, sad and divorced from a longed-for, somehow still-desired past, as you so eloquently put it, but I also realize that I’m extremely depressed from battling a 5 year illness that has no ending in sight. My apologies if this offends you or others, I am who I am and that’s not going to change given the circumstances. Healing? Belief? Trust me, I’ve been there and done that. It’s great that your beliefs are strong and unrelenting, but some of us need more help than thoughts and prayers, or even deep-seeded belief which you seem to have plenty of.

          You seem to be very confident. Enlighten me, why is our presence so vital if lives begin and end all the time? Do you not think the world will carry on when we die? Human lives are constantly coming into and out of existence.

          Again, I’m not trying to be disrespectful towards you. I’m just seeing things a little differently than you.

          Have a good day.

        • L August 11, 2019 at 5:16 pm

          I had the exact same reaction to that post as you did, Lukasz……

        • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 1:15 pm


          No hurt feelings.

          Please don’t offence to my earlier post. I was trying to relate that doing nothing in the past didn’t help me but I realize that there’s plenty of people who do very well without supplementation. I’m glad you’re one of them. It’ll save you tons of money and it’s also possible that the results will be better than for those of us who have experimented with different supplements.

          How many months or years are you into this?

    • L August 10, 2019 at 4:01 pm Reply

      I’ve been on thyroid replacement for decades. When I talked to both my ND and integrative MD about trying to get off of them, they both said “don’t worry about that. Focus on getting better.” Neither seems to think it is an issue. (and given I have been on them so long I am not sure my body could ever adjust to go off of them.) (Levothyroxin)

      • Lukasz August 10, 2019 at 4:35 pm Reply


        What’s their role in your recovery, if any? I don’t want to feed the pockets of doctors if they won’t benefit my health in any way. I have 5 years of insomnia / inability to stay asleep that I’m trying to resolve and was thinking that maybe it’s related to a hormone imbalance? I don’t want to further jeopardize my health (I’m in bad shape) but at the same time, I know I have to do something, else I’ll be dead soon.

        • L August 10, 2019 at 6:22 pm

          Nothing specific to my recovery, but as I said I have been on them for decades, because an underactive thyroid can effect pretty much every function in your body, and obviously my integrative doctors didn’t think my going off the meds was all that crucial. I would first make sure that your doctor did a complete thyroid panel. Most docs only do only the TSH test, and not also include free and total T3 and free and total T4. This link I am posting talks about trying to naturally address the issue (I think I am way too past this) and as a floxie you may already likely be doing much of this. https://draxe.com/health/endocrine-system/hypothyroidism-diet-natural-treatment/

        • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 2:44 pm

          Thanks for the info. I’ve had TSH, Free T3 and Free T4 levels tested in the past by an integrative MD and the results were all in the normal range but both TSH and T3 were on the low end. Only T4 was well into the normal range. He gave me an Rx for thyroid (30mg) (1 tablet 1 time daily for 2 months of 30 days) and Maxalt (10mg) (3 tablets other for 1 week) (Takes one tablets SOS. Please issue 3 tablets).

          Have you heard of these ones?

          As you can see, the instructions are confusing. I ended up not filling the prescription because his IVs got me into a worse state than I already was. Lately though, I’ve been thinking more about the thyroid and if the antibiotics haven’t damaged it. I’ve heard of many people having thyroid issues post-abx and I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that I was one of them. It was always on my radar to dig deeper into this but it always seemed to go on the back-burner. I think I’ll need to revisit this especially since low end results can signal a deficiency/imbalance, am I right?

        • L August 11, 2019 at 5:15 pm

          Never heard of those. I really don’t think thyroid med is something to be worried about. Like I said I have been on levoythyroxin for decades and never had any issues

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 7:55 am

          That’s reassuring. Do you know what the appropriate doses are? Do they start people on lower doses and then work the dose up or is it usually a fixed dose?

        • L August 12, 2019 at 9:57 am

          There are SO many different doses. It depends on what your tests reveal. I have been on a couple different strengths EG for levothyroxine: https://reference.medscape.com/drug/synthroid-levoxyl-levothyroxine-342732

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 10:26 am

          I’ll wait for the tests then. Thanks, L.

        • Madge Hirsch August 12, 2019 at 3:39 pm

          It was after what I think was my fourth encounter with Cipro! After the 3rd ( iv in hospital for diverticulitis ) I had an abnormal ECG and chest pain but nobody told me it was a reaction to the drug. I cannot verify what I think were my 1st and second floxings due to my English medical records being destroyed after moving to France but I am sure going by the symptoms that I was given Cipro at least twice in UK. It is possible I also got it as a prophylactic for an operation. I took a combo of synthetic thyroxine and NDT ( which I ordered online from America ) for many years with no heart problems and felt well on it. This was after what I think was my second floxing. I started having really bad rib pain which mystified my GP ( little wonder as cartilage degeneration in the ribs is a problem in the elderly and I was only 47 then). I also had stomach pain so she sent me for testing. That was when the hypothyroidism was discovered though I found out later that a thyroid test done 7 years previously was not normal. If your free T3 is low you might benefit from NDT. It is odd that your TSH is also low. if free T4 is high it could be that you are not converting properly. You could try selenium supplements as selenium is essential for conversion of T4 to T3.

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 6:58 pm

          Wow. Sorry to hear about all this, Madge. You’ve been through a lot it seems but I get the feeling that you’re one of those people who’s willpower is extraordinary. I applaud your courage and determination.

          Thanks for the info re: the thyroid meds. It seems thyroid dysfunction has many ways of manifesting itself. In your case, these pains that led you to find out about your own thyroid issues. I’m glad you were able to bring it under control at some point. Are you still taking the thyroid meds today?

          Something is definitely off with either the thyroid or as you said, the conversion of T4 into T3. I should have been investigating this a long time ago but with FQAD, there is always something new to tackle.

          There was a time a while back that I was eating a couple of brazil nuts to supplement selenium but I stopped after a while. I think they helped at the time but I was being cautious and only consuming 2 a day since selenium toxicity can occur if too many are consumed. Never tried a selenium supplement on its own but it might be worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

        • David September 2, 2019 at 2:58 pm

          Lukasz. Hi I’m in Toronto and a Floxie. How do I get one of those t shirts ?

      • Madge Hirsch August 11, 2019 at 3:34 am Reply

        I think once your thyroid is not functioning and producing enough hormone it’s better to take the meds. Fluoride is a well known poison for the thyroid. I am sure my hypothyroidism was precipitated by my first floxing and then exacerbated by having moved to a city where the water was fluoridated . Once the hypothyroidism was discovered and I started treatment I improved healthwise despite having probably been floxed again. After my last floxing I ended up in ER with afib and they said it was because my TSH was too low (;though free Ts were perfectly normal). They removed my T3 and reduced the T4 and I definitely notice a deterioration. I am too worried about the afib to increase the Levothyrox. I think the arrythmia was more lokely due to the Cipro but thd cardios looked at me like I had two heads when I suggested it.

        • L August 11, 2019 at 10:40 am

          Yeah, I just figure that since the thryroid is linked to so many things, I may as well stay on the medication, and not perhaps cause even more issues. It’s not even a particularly high dose I am on (.88 mcg)

        • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 3:04 pm

          Thanks for sharing, Madge. Just to confirm, it likely wasn’t the thyroid meds that caused the heart arrythmia, but rather the second floxing from Cipro? Just want to be sure that these thyroid meds are safe and not going to cause me more problems.

    • TRISTINE August 11, 2019 at 7:34 am Reply

      Hi Lukasz,

      I myself have had issues with my thyroid post-floxing. In my own experience, I had seen a naturopathic dr who did full complete panels including cortisol saliva testing. This allowed her to analysize all the results for more accuracy. In my case, I was following natural rhythms, but it was running at a reduced capacity. Instead of treatment using pharmaceutical (western medicine), she has me using AdreneVive by Ortho Molecular Products. She was originally going to have me taking their Adrene-all product, but at the time I was nursing my 3 month old daughter.

      It took a little bit to notice a difference, but it does help. The muscle/joint pain has lessened, the insomnia issues had decreased, and it helps to clear quite a bit of the brain fog and memory problems. I also used this in conjunction with addressing my diet to be more thyroid friendly. My ND wanted me to eat more red meat, avoid vegetables and fruits that are goitrogens (ie: broccoli, spinach, etc), and avoid soy and other endocrine disruptors (many of which tend to make their way into laundry cleaning products and toiletries).

      Making all these changes together seemed to have an better impact for me.

      Due to all the additional chemicals being introduced via pharmaceuticals, I try to avoid introducing more unless it’s absolutely necessary or there is no natural alternative.

      A few other people that I know to be suffering from thyroid issues (but were not floxed), have mentioned that it appears once you are prescribed meds for thyroid it seems to be a lifelong need to remain on that medication.

      I hope this information provides you some help and hope in your recovery.

      • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 3:47 pm Reply


        Thank you for this write-up.

        I had a look at this company’s website and the product you mentioned. It seems to be a good mix of extracts. My only concern is that it may be difficult to access since they are a U.S. based company and there’s not much info about shipping to Canada. Also, no suppliers in Canada, at least not any that I could find. I might get in touch with them tomorrow to see if they have delivery to Canada but with the exchange rate and shipping, it may be too expensive. Nevertheless, I appreciate you taking the time to bring this product to my attention. I saw that they also carry a product called Thyrotain which contains iodine but it’s 4 capsules per day! The AdreneVive is just 1 capsule a day. Big difference. Also, I didn’t see Adrene-All anywhere on their website but did see Adapten-All. I’m guessing that’s a different supplement to the one you’ve mentioned?

        Also, I’m surprised to hear this about vegetables. I thought broccoli and spinach were extremely beneficial for health? It’s pretty much all I eat these days.

        Anyway, glad to hear you’re better off. It gives me some hope knowing that the thyroid issues can be addressed and improvements to health be obtained.

        • TRISTINE August 11, 2019 at 4:42 pm

          For the Adrenevive & Adrene-all, I actually seem to get the best deals through another naturopathic dr’s online store (also located in U.S.). https://www.drdonistore.com/All-Products_c_17-3-3.html

          They do also carry on amazon as well.

          I felt very much the same about eating broccoli and spinach (amongst others) as they tend to be beneficial for most individuals, but can cause issues to persist for those of us with thyroid conditions.

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 7:59 am

          Good to know. Thanks for the info, Tristine.

        • Madge Hirsch August 12, 2019 at 4:02 pm

          They are worse if you eat them raw or very lightly cooked. Cooking helps destroy the goitrogenic chemicals in them. I think some nuts are goitrogenic too eg pine nuts which I love but try to limit. Soy is definitely goitrogenic.

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 6:29 pm

          So spinach should be fine as long as it’s well cooked? I eat it with eggs quite often and would hate to give it up. Too bad about nuts. Maybe that’s why I felt really ill a while back after having trail mix that contained various nuts and chocolate.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 13, 2019 at 2:03 am

          ” Dear heaven,please,don’t let it be the chocolade ” Lukasz,you’de better read the ingredient list on your chocolade before eating;many chocolade bars contain….soja lecithin,and you might be allergic to soja.

          After being floxed I have several allergies;some started after my first AB course (2004,Amoxicillin and Metronidazole).It is a fact that AB’s are a major cause of allergies;main action probably being the killing of gut flora.In the 12 years that followed,some of them diminished,but after being floxed they all came back,fullblown.

        • Lukasz August 13, 2019 at 4:52 pm

          It was a trail mix snack so a combination of nuts and chocolate bits but I wouldn’t be surprised to find that one of the ingredients was in fact, soy lecithin. I had no idea that soy lecithin was a food additive. Considering I’ve had issues with soy products before, it’s another ingredient I’m going to have to keep an eye on. Pretty sure the Haagen-Dazs ice cream bar that I splurged on today contained it as well. How to live without Haagen-Dazs, though? lol

          I too have a laundry list of food allergies, sensitivities, intolerances, or whatever it’s called these days and they ALL began after the antibiotic rounds. I had no issues with any foods prior to getting floxed. So yes, you’re correct Henk, antibiotics are the catalyst to these issues and gut disbiosys is the event/result that causes it to become a chronic occurrence. It’s no wonder the spike of food allergies in people has been through the roof over the past decade.

          Thanks for the assurance that these get better over time. I wouldn’t mind enjoying a small amount of junk food in the not so distant future. Especially things like ice cream which I deeply miss… and yes, it is with great shame that I admit to having it earlier today. Damn you Haagen-Dazs. Why do you have to make such good ice cream? lol

        • L August 13, 2019 at 6:04 pm

          You can find chocolate without it. I know there is no Trader Joe’s in Canada (too bad) and I eat a bit of their organic dark chocolate every night. But I am sure if you did a search you could find others as well. It does suck having to cut stuff out, but many things I had to cut out initially I am able to tolerate again…like chocolate, coffee, wine. I have even cheated and had stuff I would normally never eat at a party or somewhere, like gluten laden non-organic cookies, and had no repercussions. So hopefully this isn’t a life sentence for you.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 14, 2019 at 4:13 am

          Hi Lukasz,soja lecitin is in a lot of foods;it is used as an emulgator,to bind things like oil and water.Here,in the Netherlands,and probably in the EU,allergens are mentioned on packages,under the ingredient lists.Nowadays lecitin is also produced from sunflower seeds,and even rice becuase of many people being allergic to soje,and because its getting more and more difficult to obtain non-GM soja.

          So,there is chocolade without soja,and there might even be ice without soja (I doubt there will be Haagen Dazs,soja free).Don’t want to miss icecream? Buy an ice-maker,and make the finest icecream yourself.You can even make it without equipment,the way it was made a long time;you’ll only need a freezer.Follow the recipy,pour the mix in a bowl and put it in the freezer.Take it out every 5-10 minutes to stirr it well,and bring some air in the mixture,untill it is all froozen,and time to party ;-))

          Even simpler,for people who don’t own an icemaker: a dutch woman with a website,dedicated to making your own icecream got this recipy from her brother,also an icecream lover,who had a lot of strawberries in his freezer.He discovered that blending the frozen strawberries and fresh cream with a hand blender gives a nice ,quite creamy result;the cold temperature from the strawberries helps to get the ice-like constitution.Putting it in the freezer and taking it out to stirr,every 5 minutes might give you an even better result,making it into real icecream.But,of course,these primitive methodes are only suitede for the real icecream lovers who want it the healthy way :-))

          My allergies are,mainly,contact allergies.It took me a long time to discover that my sudden allergy for blue jeans was not from wash detergents,or the parfumes in them,but from the blue dye in those jeans.Had to buy new pants and get used to my new “image”,after wearing blue jeans for 40 years.Have a latex allergy as well (think:knickers,socks,etc.),and,why not,a classic hayfever.Probably some milk (products) intolerance and other “minor”allergy problems as well but those are hard to discover without trials.And dust,and moist….

          I do not avoid the allergens but try to minimize contact;this way your body builds up tolerance.This worked after the Metronidazole/Amoxicillin torture,and it seems to work after being floxed,as well.It’s very important to take good care of your gut flora;that’s where the bigger part of your immune system is established,and that’s the reason antibiotics,when taken orally,ruins your health in a severe way.But things like pré- and probiotics,in extreem cases a gut flora transplantation,and eating healthy food can be very helpfull.

          By the way: I have NO wireless devices in my home,and never had,because years ago I understood the hidden dangers of this technology.I have a wired telephone,and a GMS,which I use 2-3 times a month;the only times I activate it.PC,television and other devices all wired.Darkening a bedroom is not that difficult,in most homes.And pushing the Off-button on the tele and the GSM,an hour before sleeping,and sit,or lay down with a good book is possible;it’s hard,but it IS possible ;))

        • L August 14, 2019 at 8:08 am

          I use wifi only because that is my internet connection that comes with my rental, but I always turn my phone and laptop off at night and on airplane mode when not in use. BUT we are ALL having 5g forced down our throats, and this is a whole new beast. It requires a small cell tower on every block which means 24/7 exposure to EMF radiation. Brussels and parts of Switzerland have said “no thanks” but these giant world wide telecom industries are so powerful they are making it hard to fight them. Still I would urge everyone to do so and encourage everyone you know to do the same. IT is especially harmful to children, the elderly and those with illnesses. (In fact, one group I am affiliated with recently sent an email about a letter regarding the science of it and studies linked to it, and it was by none other than “our” very own Beatrice Golomb, who did the fluoroquinolone study at UCSD. ) Here is more info on 5G. https://www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal?fbclid=IwAR3D5Y3XIFGbe3ub69DADv0JuIYQ5lktcsazw50Asej4Hmz7LSyGe6yI7Ho

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 16, 2019 at 11:30 am

          Looks more and more like a chemical and electromagnetic genocide,going on;somebody behind all this must hate life :-((

          It’s not just the companies,getting rich from these technologies;the governments gain bilions of $/€ by selling the frequencies,used. Strange idea:to sell frequencies,you first have to “own” them,right? Next thing:making you pay for every breath you take? While they already poison us,and burn our brains? Why do all those idiots vote these people into power,time after time?

        • L August 16, 2019 at 12:28 pm

          And then there is also the sinister element of invasion of privacy. These devices can listen to you, track you, 24 hours a day. My apologies if I posted this link before, but it’s so important to health of everyone, not just us poisoned ones. And it is especially harmful to children. https://www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal?fbclid=IwAR3D5Y3XIFGbe3ub69DADv0JuIYQ5lktcsazw50Asej4Hmz7LSyGe6yI7Ho

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 2:35 am

          L.,I never took part of the “social”network hype.For me no Facebook,Twitters,etc. Years,before,I used Messenger,for a while,and noticed that many users were collecting “friends”.A girls,I took care of,the first 2/5- 3 years of her life,had,at one point,over 300 (!) “friends,and communicating with her on Messenger was impossible,because of all the others were disturbing our talk.Skype was just a little bit better (but is owned my Microsof,now).I sometimes use it to make a cheap phonecall with friends,abroad.

          You’re right;our life is taken away from us;so is our power. “They” own our health,our food and our privacy,at least;that’s what they think,and strife for.But there are people like Bob Beck,Dr.Mercola and quite a few others that are working on making people aware of their individual powers,and of all those powers,collected.We can still choose for healthy foods,for natural med’s and for safer options for Google,Facebook,etc.And,although slowly,more and more people start to understand what’s going on,and start to demand changes.

          Look,what the many petition websites have achieved;who could have imagined that we,via the WWW,could put pressure on politicians and make changes,15 years ago? See,how choosing for healthy bio food made big companies and supermarkets change their assortments;today every supermarket has more and more bio products on offer;they have to because we want to!

          The way they try to prevent us from putting our individual powers together is by dividing us,wherever possible.Not long ago here,in NL,they made a law that saying something to a woman what could be,in every way,offending,is punishable,and shortly after the first fine was cashed;a man,telling a woman the she looked great,had to pay € 300 for that mistake.Does the woman get the money? No;the money is cashed in by the state! Max fine on this kind of behaviour is €3000.

          How to create a real war between men and women,parents and children,etc.And while we fight this surreal war between each other,they “change our world for the better” And it will be over and they will have made the whole world into one,global,dictatorship before people wake up and realize what happened,if not for people like Beck,Mercola,Ron Paul,etcetera;the people who keep on warning us,and doing their utter best to help us fight for our rights and freedom.

        • L August 17, 2019 at 8:57 am

          Yes, using division and fear has always been the tool of those that want to rule the world. If you are familiar with George Carlin, he had a very prescient routine on this very thing. That is what has happened here in the US too. Gullible people think that it is people that don’t look like them that are the source of all their problems, when it is the politicians they have elected and the corporations they support. And as for Mercola, you are likely aware of the post he wrote the other day on how he has been relegated to the black hole of space on the internet, and I think he said he removed his facebook presence. Thankfully health practitioners like him don’t give up.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 9:07 am

          Hi L.,I love the humor of George Carlin,and his view on politics,and I follow Mercola on a daily base,for about 15 years.Have a nice weekend!

        • L August 17, 2019 at 9:22 am

          thanks! You too

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 14, 2019 at 4:39 am

          Lukasz,try to find “Even Cowgirls Get the Blues”,written by Tom Robbins .This book is a nice start;will give you a good laugh (which you really need!),and a good night sleep.And after you read the other books of T.R.,you might give other genres,and authors a chance,and call yourself a READER :-)) Best,and easiest way to fall asleep is,when your eyes get tired after reading of a good book!

        • Lukasz August 13, 2019 at 9:08 pm

          I did find and eat organic chocolate from my local health food store. That was a while ago though. I might go back to it since organic chocolate is supposedly good for you, especially 85% cocoa or above. Lots of iron and magnesium content.

          Things have improved with being able to tolerate more foods, including some non-healthy kind, but I can tell my body isn’t up for much of it. It seems to prefer the raw vegetables, as well as other healthier options. At least for the time being.

          Hope you’re right, though. It would be good to enjoy a wide assortment of foods like most people and not suffer the repercussions afterwards.

        • Madge Hirsch August 16, 2019 at 4:06 am

          I took a selenium supplement for several years but now I just eat Brazil nuts 2/3 a day. There is no worry about selenium overdose at that level.I am still taking 75 mcg of Levothyroxine but my TSH has risen a lot though still in normal range . The problem with thyroid issues is that it is very individual. Some people are perfectly fine with a TSH towards the top of the normal range whereas others have a bunch of hypo symptoms at that level. If T4 is high and and T3 low it could mean a conversion problem or a conversion to reverse T3 which I think happens if there is an adrenal problem. I always felt well with a very low TSH but my docs will not wear this any more so they give less meds.
          Although floxed several times I am not severely affected compared to many. I do live with a lot of tendon pain and it is very bad at the moment. I have been having a relapse for about 2 months now after improving a bit and that is always depressing. Recently I have had some emotinal stress and I have noticed my pain has got much worse. I was 63 when I took my last dose of Cipro in 2015. I have more or less reconciled myself to not healing like I did in the past due to my age. This time it will be even slower if at all. I worry about getting worse -especially in a relapse. At the moment walking is difficult but not so difficult I have succumbed to rooting out my walking stick! I can still climb on our motorbike and do short trips and work about 2 hours a day in my garden. Although this does not help my tendons any it makes me happy and gives me a sense of achievement. . I do hope you can get your thyroid sorted out. I am convinced that being floxed often affects the thyroid and treatment can make you feel better.

        • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 8:03 am

          Thanks Madge. I had my blood drawn a few days ago so waiting for the results on that. Hopefully, it will paint a better picture of what’s going on with the thyroid and I can begin addressing the issue if necessary.

        • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 9:56 am

          Btw, I suspect you’re right about the conversion problem. Between a possible thyroid gland problem and a confirmed adrenal gland problem, there is likely to be hormone issues. This would explain my 5 year sleep disorder, among other things.

  18. Lukasz August 10, 2019 at 4:22 pm Reply


    I get what you’re saying, but, after 5 years of being mostly housebound, I’m running out of patience. If I was only housebound and not dealing with unrelenting symptoms that make my life hell every minute of every day, I would consider doing nothing at all but these are desperate times in my life. I fear the worse if my fortunes don’t change soon. Every man and woman in this world has a breaking point and I’m getting close to mine. I’m not saying any of this to draw pity, I’m saying this because I’m truly running out of willpower, and when that happens, it’s game over.

    Przepraszam za negatywny tone ale naprawde jusz mam tego wszystkiego dosc.

    • Barbara Arnold August 11, 2019 at 2:28 am Reply

      Lukasz, what a croc. So sorry your struggling so much. You may have already tried it, but CBD oil reset my body clock. I was awake most of the night for a very long time, the opposite to what I was originally. I could sleep on a washing line no problem. Taking the CBD changed that and now I get around 7 hours good sleep. Considering my age as well that’s pretty good.
      Did you ever try the ozone autohemotherapy ? That really helped me to. The trouble is what helps one person may not help another, but these two things won’t harm you at least.
      Please don’t give up just yet, you never know if things could change in a moment.

      • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 4:03 pm Reply


        I did try CBD oil and unfortunately, it had a really bad effect on me. It was something I was really hoping would turn the tide in my favour, but it seemed to do the opposite. As you said, what works for one, may not for another. Still, it’s good to cross it off the list of things to try. At least if I exit this world, I will exit knowing that I tried everything possible to overturn this mess. I’m hoping to stick around, but once I’m out of options, it may be time to check-out.

        Are you referring to the Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy or the 10-pass ozone therapy? I did both and like the CBD, neither worked for me. I just think I’m so badly messed up by Clarithromycin and Ciprofloxacin, that it’s going to take some kind of miracle to get back on my feet. As it stands, my quality of life is so LOW, that it makes my existence hard to justify. Having said that, I’m going to stick around for a little longer in the hope that my situation changes.

        Glad you’re doing better!

        • Barbara Arnold August 12, 2019 at 3:57 am

          Sorry to hear about your experience with CBD. Just a thought, there are many different terpins and different CBD’s. You probably know all this, but thought I would mention it as it may help others. It’s really important to start low and slow and build up. Also it’s important to find a good source with full lab results so you know exactly what you are getting. Facebook has CBD forums where you get really good information. It’s about waking up your cannabinoid system and reaching your sweet spot. Is it possible you got the wrong one or gave up to soon ? Is it possible you got a herx reaction ? Forgive me Lukasz if you know all this, I just thought it might help. I know you research a lot so maybe you are just one of those unlucky people that it didn’t suit.
          The 10 pass ozone is not recommended because of the pressure on the veins. You cannot get a 10 pass in Europe. I had one a week initially for 10 weeks. It helped a lot until I had a fall about a year later and compressed my spine. So I went back and got two a week for five weeks. Again I don’t know if this would have helped you, as again we are all different. Ozone is not a cure but it helped me with pain and fatigue.
          I had 30 hyperbaric sessions at one every day . Later another 30 sessions, no cure but helped with pain and fatigue. Some people in the chamber were diabetics, others people with cancer and were having one a day for around 6 months.
          I really feel for you Lukasz, it’s hell on earth what you are going through, but you could be close to feeling better. You just don’t know when you could turn a corner.
          I’ve written this to you because even though you probably already know what I’ve said, it could help others, so please forgive me if that’s the case.

        • L August 12, 2019 at 9:46 am

          and I would add to that, you don’t need to do all ten passes. I have a new ND who has the machine to do 10 pass, and I initially thought I would try that. He suggested starting with fewer. I’m glad he did. He said lets just start with a few and see what you think, and by the time he had done 4, I said “ok, I’m done.” Nothing I can really explain. I didn’t feel bad in any way, it was like my body just said “ok, let’s stop here.” Most times I did three. In fact, I don’t think I actually ever did the whole ten. (This was for another issue, not flq toxicity.) But I think it is helpful for SO many issues.

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 9:21 am

          I thought so too so I tried a few different ones and they all seemed to make me worse. I went with low doses to err on the side of caution but still no luck. Then again, back then, I was even more wrecked than I already am and everything I tried made me feel worse so who knows. I did give up fairly soon since I was feeling very off after each one but I didn’t want to further jeopardize my health so I had to stop. Perhaps if I had carried on, my body would have adjusted to them. Herx reaction is also a possibility. As you said, I’m probably one of the few unlucky ones who’s unable to tolerate CBD.

          I have huge regret re: 10-pass ozone. I never should have done it. I felt like hell for a long time after having it. Not worth the trouble. What’s worse, they used Heparin on me, a blood thinner. They made all these claims about 10-pass ozone being the cure all and it turned out to be lies. Looking back, I wish I had never found this chelation clinic, but when you’re desperate for help, you’ll do anything. These people took my money and only made me feel worse. Then again, most of these MDs, NDs and other so called “medical professionals” go about the same route. It’s all about profiteering.

          If we didn’t live in a world where shiny discs and colourful paper was exchanged for services and products, it’d be a very different world but when you live in a world full of greed and opportunity, you’re going to have some very evil practices occurring and the outcome is a deceased and/or disabled population.

          Sorry to stray from the script, Barbara, but I’m still pissed off as hell that we’re all going through this. All because we put some trust in the medical establishment.

    • Krabiwi August 14, 2019 at 5:41 pm Reply

      The long time symtpoms are based on mitochondrial damage. If one get’s out the deleted mtDNA everything else heals too as long damage isn’t beyond repair. The main problem is that deleted mtDNA proliferates by clonal expansion and can suppress the wildtype mtDNA. Fasting and elevating of NAD+ levels enhances mitophagy of deleted mtDNA.

      On the other hand oxidative stress, lack of nutrition and antioxidants, high glyx foods and glucosis, meds, poison, x-rays, too much sport increase amount of deleted mtDNA.

      Michalak et al is highly recommended for theory of FQAD.

      • lisalisa12years August 14, 2019 at 8:32 pm Reply

        How is it possible to get out all of the mtDNA mitochondria ? I’ve tried everything within my power. Still after 13 years of taking that 1st 750 mg pill of l still have horrible gut issues. It also had a five year jump on ME since back than No one was talking about it. They were told not to speak about it to anyone as they were suing, mostly for torn Achilles. I had an attorney for three years. They suddenly dropped my case because my shoulders tore before my tendons and I developed progressive instead of another type. All I know is that I was 42 years old going to a low impact 30 min workout 5- 6 times daily along with walking two miles 5 days a week. I feel better for a few days than horrible. Depersonalzation was one of the worst parts of this poison. I’ll never STOP fighting this. I Do believe it starts to hurt the human body immediately. It really attacks especially bad once it’s totally stopped being ingested. That’s how it felt to me. As I took levequin and Avelox levequin 7 times Avelox twice for sinus infections within a three year time period. 2009 was the first time I ever saw a warning about these toxins. I say toxins as I believe that’s exactly what they are. The company KNEW EXACTLY what they were going to do to the human body 20+ years before I ingested one pill. Ruining millions of people’s lives worldwide is a greedy devastating thing for any company to do. Yet they’re still doing it ? THESE poisons need to be BANNED FOR EVER. Knowing what I know now, if TOLD I had a 50/50 CHANCE of surrival by ingesting levequin antibiotic/ POISON. I would follow my probiotics and oil of oregano capsules three times DAILY. I’d heal within days with absolutely no side effects whatsoever. SAFE natural antibiotic Oil of Oregano. No side effects unless allergic to oregano. That’s my go too now. Only if I actually have an infection. Thanks for your feedback. Any place I can read up about healing the mitochondria , greatly appreciated.

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 15, 2019 at 3:44 am Reply

        Lisa wrote an article about this publication,two years ago:


        The most promissed suggestions for treating the FQ after-effects:

        “In the case of mtDNA destroying, the treatment is difficult and it must focus on the stimulation of mitochondrial replication. The more destroyed mitochondria must be removed and the less destroyed must replicate in order to substitute for the removed ones and to reduce the total LEC. After many replications, the most healthy mitochondria would dominate the cell. The final effect would depend on the state of the most healthy mitochondrium in the cell.”

        This one was the first thing that came into my mind after I found out about the mitochondrial damage and mtDNA damage,and after reading about how cells create new,and more mitochondria when needed I imagined that stressing the cells to work harder would be the most likely way to (partly) repair the damage.I put it to the test and it seems to work;my energy levels are up,although not to the pré-FQ levels.Later on I read on the website of Carolyn Dean that she’d come to the same conclusion.

        Attention: because of weakened tendons,you’d better not stress the muscles and tendons too much,or you risk ending up worse,instead of better. And you need to build up slowly; when I started pressing myself to be more active,tiredness from working a few hours lasted for days,and it was not the normal feeling of being tired,but it was a feeling of being sick.After a while these things improved and by now I mostly get a quite normal tired feeling,and the restoration is way quicker.

        “If new research would confirm the existence of FQs in the cells and mitochondria in the amounts making possible their permanent interactions with proteins and cations even after many years of FQ application, the research must focus on methods on how to remove FQs from strong protein and cation complexes. The simplest way seems to be the application of increased doses of metal cations Fe2+, Cu+, Mn2+, Zn2+, and Mg2+ which are natural FQ-competitors for protein-binding sites.”

        Although there isn’t any proof of FQ’s,remaining in the cells,long after the FQ use has ended,the suggestion of daily supplementation of those minerals and trace elements seems to be a logic one.Question,here;which forms are the ones that have the best chanche to get there,where we need them most.Chelated forms might be the most effective ones.Vitamines C,E,K and others are mentioned as well.

        Two years after this publication nothing seems to have been done as a follow up on this article.The writer’s urge to do more research on several points he indicated seems not to have worked,so far,in spite of the fact that he,describing the immense misery,these FQ’s cause,and the lack of knowledge,how to help these victims in restoring their health,where possible,has given the world of “Science Based Medicine” a clear message:”You have caused all this misery,and now it’s you,who has the duty to do whatever is possible to help this/your victims.” Untill now: silence!

  19. Dee August 11, 2019 at 10:55 am Reply

    I’ve been on thyroid meds for 40 years as I have Hashimotos (low thyroid). When I got floxed 2 years ago my thyroid went haywire!! My dosage had to be lowered 4 times! It has been stable now the past several months. I take both synthroid and cytomel which is T4 and T3. I agree with the others here and make sure you get a FULL panel to test your thyroid and only go on meds if your Doc feels it is necessary! There are 4-5 tests in a panel and make sure your Doc is knowledgeable about thyroid issues. Some are not very knowledgeable about reading and understanding all of the tests given in a full panel. You cannot just go by your TSH. You must look at the whole picture!!!

    • Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 4:25 pm Reply

      Thanks for your input, Dee.

      40 years is a long time, but if it’s necessary, what choice is there? Any idea what caused your Hashimotos all these years ago? Someone once made reference to it and was under the impression that I may have this condition. This person’s family member had it and it matched many of my symptoms.

      So if antibiotics cause the thyroid to go haywire, as in your case, it’s clear as day that they do some kind of damage, if not destruction, to the thyroid gland and accompanying hormones which are produced there. This would explain many of the health problems that have arisen for so many of us.

      I know this is for the doctor to work out but any idea what sort of thyroid med dosages are normal for a male in his late 30’s? Do these thyroid meds have any uncomfortable side effects or are they well-tolerated? As you can expect, I’ve grown to be very cautious about pharmaceuticals, that’s why I ask.

      • L August 11, 2019 at 5:21 pm Reply

        Hashimoto can also have a genetic mutation component

        • Justin Baghai August 12, 2019 at 11:50 am

          I actually found out I had Hashimotos post flox by chance since my thyroid numbers are “lab perfect” My entire Mom’s side of the family has it and my brother got checked after I did and he has it as well. It’s a very hereditary disease.

      • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 6:22 pm Reply


        If you don’t mind me asking, how did you come to know if your lab results were fine? Is there some sort of test for Hashimotos besides the full panel test used for thyroid?

        • Madge Hirsch August 16, 2019 at 1:02 pm

          Yes -you need to have testing for thyroid antibodies as Hashimoto’s is an autoimmune condition. There are several types of thyroid antibodies. Re your question on spinach. I think lightly cooked spinach would not be goitrogenic. It is raw cauliflower and cabbage salads you should avoid. As for nuts pine nuts are the worst and an online search would check out others.l dont think all nuts are goitrogenic.

        • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 6:44 pm

          Thanks Madge.

  20. Lukasz August 11, 2019 at 4:44 pm Reply


    Has anyone come across this website before? https://cfsremission.com/

    I truly believe many of us are suffering from CFS/ME as a result of the antibiotics we took and this website is like an encyclopedia of the condition. The guy running it is extremely knowledgeable on the subject since he, too, is suffering from the symptoms of CFS/ME. What caught my attention is that he has had THREE separate onsets of the disease and claims to have been in remission after each one. His onsets occurred in 1972-73, 2000-2001, and finally, 2012. He outlines basic and lengthier protocols for remission but what really caught my eye was an Australian study that he published on his blog. The study focuses on gut bacteria and paints a clear picture of what someone with a damaged gut is up against. Basically, they took bacteria samples from CFS/ME patients and compared it to a control group that had no known health issues. The results speak for themselves. A very different gut between the two with very different micoflora levels especially healthy E. Coli.

    To see the results of the aforementioned study, click the link below and scroll down until you see “Gut Flora in ME/CFS from an Australian Study”.


    • L August 11, 2019 at 5:23 pm Reply

      It’s kind of a circular thing. I think many people diagnosed with CFS actually were floxed

      • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 9:37 am Reply

        My thoughts, exactly.

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 12, 2019 at 3:12 am Reply

      Lukasz,Lisa wrote an article,two weeks ago,about this subject.You might have missed it:


      Have you tried Melatonin and (Bio) Chamomilla tea,for your sleep problems,yet? I use melatonine for almost 2 decades,now,and the Chamomilla tea,added,works remarkably well.A cheap and safe remedy,this combination,for me,and maybe/probably for others as well.

      • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 9:55 am Reply

        Henk, I read Lisa’s article some days ago and agree 100% with her assessment on the subject. What amuses me is that they have coined so many different terms for essentially the same autoimmune disease. Talk about HOODWINKING the public!

        I’ve tried both melatonin and organic chamomile tea but not at the same time. What was the melatonin dose that you use again?

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 12, 2019 at 11:22 am

          Hi Lukasz,the dose depends per person.And it can change in time,too. best choise is the time released form,and a good dose to start is,I guess,1 mg.When not enough,there are also 3mg,and even 5 mg tabs,but you might first try with 2 x 1 mg,3 x 1 mg,untill you know the best dose for you,at the moment (may change in time).

          At the moment I use 7 or 8 x 0,1 mg tabs;is enough for me.I prefer taking the minimum required dose of every med/supp. I use.Taking a too high dose of Melatonin makes you feeling drowsy and not fully awake,next day.

          The Camomilla tea seriously improves sleep quality,and also helps to fall asleep.Taking your (part of) daily magnesium supplement right before going to bed also helps. And there’s the known facts about what to,or not to do before going to bed:

          Not to do: watching screens (television,PC monitor,smart phone etc),sit in a room with fluoriscent light,or Led light. The old light bulbs are best;they mimic nature with their soft,redisch light.

          Do: prepare yourself for the night.Relax,do some meditation or read a book.Listen to relaxing music,etc.

          For a good night sleep your room must be absolutely dark! And,if possible,free of EM waves,so: no activated (smart-)phone,no Dect-phone,no active WIFI,Bluetooth,etc.Those waves disturbs sleep,especially in sensitive people.

          I have sleeping disorders since child time,and still have,but the advices above really helped me to get the best out of the time I sleep.Used melatonine for years but after being floxed this wasn’t enough,and I darkened my bedroom,added the Camomilla tea and did return to reading before closing my eyes (read before sleeping since I learned to read but Tele and PC ruined that habbit untill I realized it was way better than screen watching,before sleeping).

          I hope this helps you!

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 12, 2019 at 11:55 am

          Lukasz,I forgot this: skipping from whatever magn. supp. you use at the moment,to Magnesium Threonate might help a lot: this magn. supp is the only one that easily passes the blood/brain barrier.First time I used it,it brought me nightmares,but I tried again after a few days and it reaaly works well on the brain (and sleep). I would use this one if it weren’t for the high costs,which makes me use the next best one: Magn.Glycinate.

        • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 7:26 pm

          Henk, thanks for the info and suggestions. Really appreciate you taking the time.

          I never knew how precious sleep was until I lost it… now I realize it’s up there with breathing as far as how necessary it is for survival. No sleep = no quality of life the next day.

          I try to do much of what you suggested but it’s hard. Living in the 21st century has plenty of pros but just as many drawbacks including technology. It can be a great tool for us, but a massive distraction as well. As you said, all these electrowaves play a part in our sleep cycle but also during the daytime when we’re awake and exposed to them for many hours a day. I try to avoid as many wireless products are possible for this very reason.

          Another thing I need to do is make my bedroom darker. As you said, it’s a vital thing to do. I have too much street light entering through my shades. Going to have to address this.

    • L September 17, 2019 at 5:06 pm Reply

      Or maybe he has fluoroquinolone toxicity! Yes, healthy gut microbiome is crucial. It is not only for digestive issues, but for almost ALL disease. They have now linked gut microbiome to caner, Alzeimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS, you name it!

    • Henk Noordhuizen September 18, 2019 at 3:01 am Reply

      Lukasz,the medical industry has,at last,realized how important a healthy gut flora is,and at the moment there’s lots of research going on,here.One of the triggers was,of course,the successes,claimed in the alternative medicine sector,where they aimed at gut flora repair for years,while the Farmafia was still killing off those healhy bacteria with their AB’s and other “medicines”.

      The discovery of the Akkermansia bacteria is one of the examples,where the industry claims success,but the actual discovery was done by a mom and daughter whotried a gutflora transplantation (mom had hefty gut problems,after an AB course,for three years).The experiment worked,and mom got better,but,while being slender for all her live,she started,getting obese,like her daughter.Their story on the WWW caught the intention of scientists and the Akkermansia bacteria discovered,and now they are working on a way to make AKkermansia capsules.So,after destroying your gut flore with their poisons they try to gain even more of your money by offering a way of repair;our own,healthy gut bacteria.Double gain!

  21. Riley August 12, 2019 at 8:11 am Reply

    Has anyone been pretty much healed and then gets relapses after taking medication that did not bother them before?

    I was 99% healed and then I took a Tylenol and then all of my floxie symptoms returned but seem to be leaving a lot quicker than original floxing?

    any success stories?

    my anxiety is way to high to read all the negativity

    I am 8 months out and I took 2 pill of 500mg, main symptoms were muscle weakness, worst symptom was neuropathy and I am 27

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 12, 2019 at 9:25 am Reply

      I exclusively use Paracetamol;the active ingredient in Tylenol);it’s the safest painkiller I know. Never had any problems with it,not before,ánd not after I was floxed in sept. 2016. Some trademarks add caffeïne for a faster uptake but,as far as I know,the Tylenol brand is pure Paracetamol.

      I took 4 pills,and had heart palptations for 1 year,and,when these had vanished,got problems with doubble vision. Lots of tendon pain,shortly after being floxed,but these too,got less severe,although they regularely come back,and seem to travel along all tendons I got.Nerve pains as well,coming and going.

      Since a while the double vision has,most of it,gone,and when it is there,it is less severe than when it started.All-in-all things are a lot better then in the first two years,and I hope it will stay that way.Had to give up drinking tea (fluoride);my main drink,and I still miss it.Still have tens of different tea blends;was unable to throw them out and hope that,someday,I’m able to drink them again without severe relapse symptoms.

    • L August 12, 2019 at 10:06 am Reply

      well that’s disappointing to hear…especially since Tylenol is the only otc NON NSAID and it is the one that is recommended for floxies. Are you certain it was the pills that caused the relapse? Unfortunately some of us have relapses and never really know what caused them, as they appear to come out of nowhere. Glad to hear recovery is faster, and that seems to be the norm, with each additional relapse

  22. Jessica Williams August 12, 2019 at 6:36 pm Reply

    Dear Lucasz,

    I feel terrible about the word-mash I wrote. It sounds like I was in the movie “Dune”, on spice. Forgive me. I am rarely so embarrassed by comments I make. I am sorry from my heart.

    My empathy for you is deep and undeniable. There are some things that have happened to me since my floxification that have changed me, deep within. Life and Death now seem so much closer. It has only been 9 monthes for me, and my husband is taking excellent care of me, so I am very lucky and grateful.

    But I have changed.

    I wish you the best life you may find. I hope your pains and sadnesses melt away along the Path. Be well, Lucasz


    • L August 12, 2019 at 6:58 pm Reply

      Well that certainly made up for it for me! That made me smile. Not sure what the “spice” is but the Dune analogy made me laugh. 🙂

    • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 8:13 pm Reply


      Don’t sweat it. Upon reflecting back on your post, I came to realize that you meant well. You were trying to shed light on a bad situation. I can appreciate that. We are all suffering, some more than others, but whether we like it or not, these circumstances are what binds us. It’s what we all have in common.

      I too have experienced a massive change from my previous state, so I can relate to what you’re saying re: the change within. I think quite a few folks on this website have also had their state drastically altered. It’s not an ideal experience to go through but it is, what it is. We have to accept it.

      As for death being so much closer, that’s completely out of our hands. All we can do is make the best of our remaining time and hope that a pleasant place awaits us when the time comes to depart. These days, I try to remember the good times I had in my life prior to being floxed. It softens the blow.

      I’m glad to hear that you have a supportive spouse. That’s a blessing in itself.

      Thanks for the kind words. I too wish you a quick recovery. All the best to you.

  23. Jessica Williams August 12, 2019 at 7:15 pm Reply

    Lucasz, Spice was the drug from the planet Arrakis that made space travel possible by folding space. I was on RSO and Norco, plus prednisone. Sorry my folding crashed into your Mothership! I am thankful that you are a reasonable man, and a fair Captain. To be good, kind, and strong is evidenced in your commitment to help others.

    • L August 12, 2019 at 7:49 pm Reply

      actually it was me that posted that (L) not lucasz but thanks for the explanation (although I think I am still confused.)

    • Lukasz August 12, 2019 at 8:24 pm Reply

      I think I’ll change my name to Captain Flox. lol. Kidding aside, thanks again for the nice words.

  24. Lukasz August 14, 2019 at 10:09 am Reply

    Has anyone experienced a sensation of something being stuck in their eye post-floxing? Almost like something is crawling inside? It’s probably nerve damage inside my eye socket but I’m curious if anyone else has experienced this? Even though this issue is under a month old, my very first symptom after being poisoned by Clarithromycin was muscle spams on my eyelid, the same eye that is now giving me problems on the inside. Could this be nerve damage from the drugs or a symptom of something else like thyroid disorder? There are times when it gets better and I hardly notice/feel it, but at other times, it’s a nuisance.

    Anyone know what this is and what might be the cause?

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 15, 2019 at 6:34 am Reply

      I recognise this feeling;like having sand behind the eye.It’s always just one eye;never both,and most of the time it is my right eye,which,after having behaved like it should for the last few month,most of the time,since almost a weeks has started going “solo” again: double vision.Not as bad as it was,when it started,one year into being floxed,but untill now not improving,more like getting worse.At the same time my right side Archillea tendon,and even my right leg getting painfull,again.No known cause of this relapse,untill now.

      • Don M August 15, 2019 at 7:10 am Reply

        Every day seems to be a new experience for a floxie. Most of my daily issues are on my left side. Only good thing about it all is that I am right handed.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 15, 2019 at 7:13 am

          Hi Don,I’m a right-handed leftwinger,but my right hand is (still) okay :-))

        • lisalisa12years August 16, 2019 at 12:21 am

          Oddly the same with me. I’m thirteen years out. I didn’t know what happened to me for five years. It’s been a rough ride but never giving up. My swollen ankle tendon have gone back to almost normal. Progressive neuropathy controlled by b6 and Biotin. So many natural things that have helped me. I use oil of oregano capsules and probiotics whenever I have a sinus or ear infection..natural antibiotic that doesn’t harm me and works. I use colostrum for the past almost 4 years. First a lot now maintenance a tablespoon mixed with filtered water 3 times weekly. Actually helps with shoulder and knee pain. Torn tendons in both shoulders. I used to post a lot. I find it hard to get back in at times. Still have e-mail coming through. This site gave me HOPE probably saved my life. I knew NOTHING and learned a lot. Lisa’s great. As many of the people here are. All trying to heal and share what helps them. I’m trying the NAD in subligual form trying to heal the mitochondria. SUPPOSEDLY once we’re able to get rid of the mitochondria that’s been effected. We can fully heal 🙏 it helps. Best of luck to you. Best thing that helped me was to get complete bloodwork showing all vitamin and mineral levels. I was depleted in many. B12 47. I started subliguals immediately and stopped falling asleep 😴 constantly. Again wishing you and everyone here their BEST. Health back. ✌ and positive thoughts and energy to all. To answer your question my eyes were completely dry every am. I had to put saline solution in and wait before opening them. Actually scratched my cornea once. Floaters lasted a bit than went away. I drink a gallon of Zero water daily. Helps keep the eyes moist. I also like to believe it’s helping to continually flush out these toxins
          Best to all thanks for sharing.

      • Lukasz August 18, 2019 at 3:57 pm Reply


        Thanks for your sharing your journey. I’ve made some notes because I believe a lot of what you’ve written applies to me.

        How do you take your B6 and Biotin (B7)? Sublingual like the B12 or other form? Any particular company/brand? Also, did you suffer any Myasthenia Gravis like symptoms from the neuropathy?

    • Sheila rogers August 15, 2019 at 11:12 am Reply

      yes I have had the same sensations and so has my mom…..she won’t drive anymore because hers is so bad, for me I know it will go away eventually so I try not to rub my eyes but once I did have a floater get stuck and went to the eye doctor and he said that it was an adhesion and would eventually let go which it did….but it is no fun I’m an artist and hardly paint anymore due to eye issues from cipro

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 16, 2019 at 11:14 am Reply

        Hi Sheila,same problem,here.I am,or,actually,was a fanatic hobby photographer.No fun at all,now;a short view through the viewfinder is,half of the time,enough to distord the synchronisation between both eyes,and I have to wait untill my right eye wants to focus on the same point as my left eye,again.After a few times this double vision,my eyes start to get tired from trying to re-focus on one point,and all the fun is gone.Trying too much gives me a headache.I never leave the direct surroundings of my house anymore,accompanied by my camera.

        • Lukasz August 18, 2019 at 4:08 pm

          Henk, as an amateur photographer myself, I know how you feel. It was/is one of my biggest life passions, along with travelling. I was never one to use the viewfinder much as I always preferred the LCD screen, but I know what you mean nevertheless.

          I still take some shots here and there but they’re mostly of my immediate surroundings. Prior to getting floxed, I was all over the place taking photographs. Nature, landscapes and wildlife are my favourite to photograph. Hope you can eventually get back into it, even if you have to use the LCD screen.

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 2, 2019 at 9:01 am

          Hi Lukasz,I prefer the viewfinder over the LCD screen because I like to go out with my cam on sunshiny days,and always have troubles with the reflections on the screen.After over 7 years of putting aside every bit of money I could spare,I bought the Pentax K-1 Mark 2,and it has the greatest (and craziest ;-)) LCD screen ever made (you would probably love it :-)) but I hardly use it.In some situations,though,I’m gonna appreciate this new Pentax invention very much (think of mushroom pics,without laying on the moisty soil,and making photo’s,standing behind tall persons (I’m a small guy).

          Another problem is the shortage of energy,like you mentioned,and the weak muscles.This makes me feel very vulnerable,walking around with my cam,knowing there’s lots of shady persons in the streets,nowadays,looking for easy targets/victims like I am,now. This works on my nerves,and I don’t feel relaxed,enjoying my photography hobby,as I used to.Cipro took much of that fun away from me.Add the eye problems and you’ll understand what this means,being a passionate photographer,yourself.

          By the way: this cam weights 1 1/2 kilo,with the kitlens attatched,and my floxed muscles have problems handling it for longer sessions.I,too,like landscapes and nature photography,but also macro,and noticed that after 10-15 minutes my hands start shaking from getting too tired.Never had that problem,before,but no it seems to me that I’ll have to get used to working with a tripod,or a monopod,despite of having a great shake reduction in my cam,when “hunting” insects and other small things.

          You’re quite a bit younger than me,as far as I know,and I really hope your condition(s) will improve more than enough to enjoy your traveling and photo-hunting,like you did before.Greetings,and good luck to you !

    • Anna August 16, 2019 at 3:09 am Reply

      I wouldn’t describe it as crawling, but a movement in the sinuses near the eye is how I would describe it. I never had sinus sensations before floxing. I had to go to the emergency room for my eyes, 48 hours after Cipro500 – so that was the worst part of my floxing. They determined (guessed) the tissue/tendons around my eyes inflamed from an immune response to the medication. The inflammation caused eye pain and blurred vision for weeks. Afterwards I was left with one under eye bag, not a herniated fat pad, but likely the skin stretched from the inflammation. One eye was affected worse than the other, but my vision returned to normal thankfully. I still get a moving sensation in the sinus area around my eye, I have no idea why. Maybe it is your sinus cavities?

    • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 9:28 am Reply

      So it seems this is more or less a common occurrence. As some of have described, it seems to be some kind of movement within the eye or eye socket. I don’t think it’s in the sinus cavities itself because the movement / crawling sensation seems to be more confined to the eye area. My speculation is that it’s related to nerve damage, but again, this is only my speculation. I’m thinking about seeing an optometrist for this issue, but the wait times to see one here are ridiculously long. Plus I refuse to have any more eye drops placed into my eyes. God only knows what kinds of chemicals / poisons they’re putting into these eye drops.

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 16, 2019 at 10:38 am Reply

        The eyedrops are Atropine,from the Atropa Belladonna,a plant from the Nightshade family.In the past,women used it because they thought the big eye pupils made them look beautiful (now they use Botox,to be “beautiful”;another toxin).The whole plant is highly toxic;2-3 berries can kill a child.The plant is protected (not the children :-(( ,but since last year this plant seems to grow all over the place,around my house,and I do destroy them,to protect the children.Most worrying fact:those berries seem to have a nice taste,so,after one berry they will probably eat more of them.

        Those drops are not eye’s best friends;years ago an optician overdosed me and I could hardly find my way home (by bike).had several almost-accidents.For several days I was half blind and the least bit of sunshine burned in my eyes like crazy.Worked as an archaeology assistant,at the time,and it were hot,sunshiny days which made my work a terrible experience for about a week!

        A few month ago my neighbour accidentally used the drops from one of his daughters, (though it were his eyedrops,for his itchy eyes because of hayfever allergy),and had the very same problem.

        As far as I know these eyedrops are not more problematic for floxies than for others,but don’t use them unless they are really necessary.

        • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 7:02 pm

          Unreal. Thanks for sharing this, Henk. This makes me wonder if the eye drops that were used on me in years past haven’t impacted my eyes and vision. Between Clarithromycin, Ciprofloxacin and these drops, it’s a toss-up as to which poison has had the most toxic effects on my eyes. At this point, I can kiss my 20/20 vision goodbye. What a world.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 2:03 am

          I’d bet on the Cipro,and the Clarithromycin may have played it’s part,as well.I had great eyes,and all my same-aged friens were jaleous.Then,in 2004,shortly after a course with Metronidazole and Amoxicillin,I got floaters;It scared the hell out of me! It took quite a long time to,slowly,disappear,with some very small leftovers.But,shortly after getting floxed,the floaters were back.This was long before I got the double vision problem;at least half a year earlier.

          The double vision came with horrible pains in y eyes,like somebody sticking needles in my eyes.These pains are now,mostly,gone.Only when I stress my eyes to much,like,when the double vision is there,or when I want to finish a chapter in the book I’m reading,the pains return.

          I think that the Atropine drops are quite safe,if they are pure Atropine,with no adds (“they” seem to put Fluoride in more and more “medicines”;what a great way to dump industrial waist!).Better ask the doc,first.And,like with other seemingly safe things,like an ordinary cup of tea,a floxie is often more sensitive to adverse reactions.

        • Lukasz August 17, 2019 at 11:25 am

          Me too. I had perfect 20/20 vision and had razor-sharp vision. Then these poisons came into my life and my vision was suddenly destroyed. I’m still furious about that. I could go on another rant about the injustice of it all but I’ll save my breath since it won’t change a thing.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 11:50 am

          Don’t waist the little energy,left after being floxed on hate and furious thoughts; that’s useless.Better appreciate what’s left and try to make the most of it.I’m glad my ears are still in exellent condition;it made it possible for me enjoy the beautiful and sometimes meditational music of Jessica.You might want to go there and find some joy and relaxation as well:


          I know there’s lots of good music to be found but she’s one of us,floxies,remember? And for people,in a better financial condition than I am: you might consider to help her by buying one or more of her cd’s;then,maybe,one day,she’ll have enough money to (re-) buy a piano (had to sell her own;read her story,on her website.)

        • Lukasz August 17, 2019 at 3:21 pm

          Wish I could, Henk. Reality is, my blood will be boiling over this until the day I die.

    • Madge Hirsch August 16, 2019 at 1:09 pm Reply

      Could this be an extreme symptom of dry -eye? Both floxing and hypothyroidism cause this. I have never had this though I have had bouts of dry eye . After my second floxing when my hypothyroidism was discovered it was so bad I had to have lubricating eye drops.

      • Lukasz August 16, 2019 at 7:14 pm Reply

        It very well could be. I pray that it has something to do with my dysfunctional thyroid, if it’s even dysfunctional, so that I can address it with thyroid meds and hopefully get my vision issues resolved. I noticed that the double vision / blurriness tends to occur later in the day. It’s not so bad early in the day but gets progressively worse as the hours go by. If thyroid meds resolve this, I’m happy to take them for the rest of my life. If it’s a floxing symptom, I’m pretty much screwed.

        • Jessica Williams August 17, 2019 at 10:04 am

          Lucasz, I slept on my side ( a first for about 9 months) and laid on my eye. It was dim and fuzzy all day. I’ve had a cataract operation years ago, so it’s not the lens, it has to be either subtle retinal tearing (retinal detachment is a trick of the flox fox). But I washed both eyes with streams of water, and this yellow-grey kind of goop came out of both eyes. It’s like a huge floater but not clear. Just try that, and maybe it might work. Maybe our eyes get “infected” from flox. Whatever — this was not clear optical exudate — this spoke of infection.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 10:41 am

          Jessica,the floaters I had in 2004 were black;it was blood,from a teared small bloodvain,and it took a long time to vanish.My recent floaters,and the ones I head since the black ones vanished,are mainly transparent,sometimes black But those are mainly small,compared to that first ones in 2004.It sometimes helps (according to the eye doctor),to sleep sitting right up (the floaters will sink to the bottom of the eye),but I can only sleep on my right side,since my health problems started.

          Sleeping on my (right) eye causes,just like you experience,a blurred vision for hours,after waking up.Best is,to not touch that eye;could make things worse or make it longer to get o.k.I think that laying on your eye does something nasty with the tendons on the back of the eyeball.Only rest brings it back to “normal”.The yello/gray “goop” you mentioned makes me think of the “corns” you often find in the corners of your eyes,at wake up.It’s the dried tear fluid;most of the time it’s hard “corns”,but sometimes it’s a sticky stuff; an infection might play a role,here.

        • L August 17, 2019 at 11:08 am

          The floaters are caused from vitreous tears. Just like all other connective tissue, good ole cipro and the other flq toxins eat through it. Mine were so severe that the day after ONE pill I rushed to the eye doctor thinking I had a detached retina.

          Within a couple weeks I had so many floaters, I could not see more than a couple feet. My eyes were literally filled with what seemed like hundreds of them. (These were those greyish ghostly squiggle.) For more than a year it was like trying to look through gauze.) Then within a month or so, I got the little black dot ones (also floaters.) I kept waving my hand to the side, thinking there were bugs there. There was a long period of time…months, where there were so many, they would literally cover whatever I was looking at. I was terrified it would always be like that. I remember standing on the white tile floor of a Costco, while someone picked up something for me. I just stood there in tears as I looked down and it seemed to be covered in thousands of these little black dots.

          The scariest thing to happen with my eyes was seeing two different images. NOT double vision, but two distinctly different images. Our minds automatically merge what we see through our eyes into one cohesive picture. But my brain wasn’t doing that. I was seeing one thing out of one eye and a different thing out of the other. Fortunately that resolved.

          I don’t know if it was just time, or the CAN-C eyedrops I took for over a year, but the floaters are mostly gone. My sight is not as good as it was (although I still only use reading glasses), and I was diagnosed with macular degeneration after the cipro. I do a light therapy procedure every 4 months to hopefully keep it at the stage it is in since there is no cure. I was fortunate that the doctor who developed it lives in my county.

          I am posting a link of what it looked like to look at anything for several months. Not sure it will go to the right place though. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=black+dots&t=ffhp&atb=v1-1&ia=images&iax=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fspoonflower%2Fpublic%2Fdesign_thumbnails%2F0457%2F3970%2Fminikuosi_dots_bw_new_shop_preview.jpg

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 11:32 am

          I first tried the link you sent and,well;lots of black dots,that’s for sure ;-)) But I don’t think it was where you ment to send me/us ;-)) But it was funny,and gave me a good laugh,so,thank you!

          My first floaters,in 2004,the black ones,were “strings” of blood,from torn veins.My eye doc confirmed this;in fact,she told me what it was because I didn’t have a clue.The vitreous tears were there,as well,and it’s that kind of floaters,that I had,from time to time,ever since. Might be some black onces between them that consist of blood cells,but I don’t want to go to the eye doc anymore;she’s too fond of using the Atropin fluid on me.

          IN times when the floaters are there,I also have this “light show”,when I move my eyes around in the dark. These seem to be caused because of a partially torn retinal,and damaged nerves.

          Today I woke up with a cramped and painfull right side buttock,and because of the pain I hardly did a thing untill now.Being floxed has brought pain into my life on a daily base.Sometimes there’s a good day,more often the days are no fun at all because of the ever present symptoms.I hope,there’s a special hell for doc’s who,willingly,poisoned us,and so many other people,with extra tortures for the most evil among them ;-))

        • L August 17, 2019 at 12:09 pm

          nope, that was it! That is what my eyes saw for the first year. Your post reminded me of something else. I had an absolutely terrifying “light show” in the central vision of my right eye that went on for ten minutes. It was like a big arc of light with little bursts of electrons over it. Thanks fully that never returned. But I do get little flashes of light from time to time and my eye doctor told me it was from the macular degeneration. I now see a couple different opthamologists…since I don’t want to trust anyone in particular

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 12:49 pm

          sounds a bit like my lightshow;circular flashes in the middle,and some smaller flashes on the outsides,left and right.I.had a dark “flash” by daylight,for a while,but that’s almost gone,now.Haven’t seen that one,for days.That’s why it amazes met that I still have a sharp view on distant objects,and a reasonably sharp view on reading distance (I’m 65),alhough,especially when I’ve laid on my right eye during sleeping,focus of hat eye is disturbed for hours,sometimes for the rest of the day.In now way as much fun as the lightshows were,back,in the 70’s (I was a DJ,back then,although not a real pro :-))

          Fact: Bob Beck created the surrealistic light effects in the movie “The Trip” (1967).This was just one of his many interests.Peter Fonda,one of the actors in this movie,died yesterday,aged 79.


        • L August 17, 2019 at 12:59 pm

          yes, I heard about Peter Fonda right after hearing two friends I had not seen in quite a while had died. One in his 50s , the other in his 60s 😦 Both seemed very healthy last time I saw them. Another reminder we need to make the most with what we have. Although if someone had told me that at gasping, underweight, blinded self, I would have said “yeah, right.”

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 2:54 am Reply

        Madge,I really don’t know what causes this nasty feeling of “dirt” behind the eye,but in my case,it slowly got less and less frequent,and now it is only seldom there. What might help is an eye-wash,with destilled water or,what I used,Camomile tea,and Colloidal Silver water.Don’t know which of both worked best,but in the end it helped a lot.I only used the C.S.before sleeping to eliminate the extremely small risk of getting “blue eyes” (Argyria).

        Like all FQ symptoms,the quality of my eyes,too,has ups and downs.Today the double vision,that came back a couple of days ago,seems to have disappeared (for now),and my vision of distant objects is (almost) razorsharp.Even reading without using glasses is still possible although it takes some more afford and a little more distance between eyes and text.Ingredient lists are almost impossible to read,but that’s because the companies choose to print them in the smallest character,possible;they don’t want us to read what’s in our food!

        • Lukasz August 17, 2019 at 12:41 pm

          Thanks to everyone for their input on the eye issues. It’s another wound I have to make peace with.

        • Madge Hirsch August 18, 2019 at 7:39 am

          My main eye problem has been blurred vision when I wake up. This comes and goes and when present disappears after 5/10 mins and a lot of blinking. I have had it many years now. 8/9 months after my last dose of Cipro I suffered a vitreous detatchment in my right eye. This has never gone away ( unlike one my husbsnd had) but I have got used to it. It looks like a small black twig with a few dots round it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 21, 2019 at 1:00 pm

          Madge,the blurred vision that disappears after a few minutes of blinking sounds like,what they call,here,”Eye Soup”,which occurs,most of the time,at wake-up (although I sometimes got this,on other times,and sometimes after rubbing my eyes).The other “artwork”,the branch and blobs,sound like a combi of different kind of floaters,and other eye damage.Very annoying,and also quite disturbing because your eyes are so important.

  25. lisalisa12years August 16, 2019 at 12:00 am Reply

    The greatest place to find information to help as much as possible. To all of US we now call ourselves ” FLOXIES ” MAY this site help you on your journey to healing as much as possible. If not completely. Thirteen years later I’m still fighting off side effects. Many have disappeared others remain. No two of us are the same, what helps one may or may not help another. I found the best thing that helps all is Magnisium. Get your vitamin and mineral levels checked by a caring Dr or endocrinologist and start from there. Best of luck to you all. May your healing process begin. Never give up, no matter how bad it gets we’re still here. Other’s lost their lives with just one pill. The company needs to be held responsible and do everything possible to find a cure for all of us. Thirteen years of suffering from an FDA approved antibiotic all because I trudged a lazy Dr who never looked back for updates on these toxins to the human body. ✌ love and mostly your HEALTH.

  26. Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 3:10 am Reply

    I wonder if somebody else noticed this,so I ask. Like many floxies my healthy looking skin changed to a dry,wrinkled skin within a few weeks after getting floxed.But this year I spent a lot of time outside,and in my garden,and my skin seems to hardly get any sun tanning;it still has that pale look it had in spring.And wounds heal very slooooowly,to,and leave a sign that hardly vanishes,if,at all.

    I know I’ve read something about the ability of sun tanning,and the Melanin production being damaged in Floxies,but I can’t find that info back,for now.Has anybody noticed this same symptoms? And has anybody found info about this,and NOT lost it (like I did ;-))

    • Jessica Williams August 17, 2019 at 9:43 am Reply

      Dear Henk,
      I was severly floxxed 10 monthes ago (cipro) and my skin has also reacted. My face is fine so far but my hands! I’m female, 71, and I’ve seen fire and I’ve seen rain but flox changes all of you. The only thing I’ve found that really works to keep skin smooth, and cut the pain is liquid RSO, CBD, home-made in my house because my husband is a licensed grower of such products (limited to my 15 planys). It’s too expensive on an SS budget, but he makes it for me, and uses extra green virgin olive oil as a base. Look up “Primo: making RSO) on youTube.


      • Henk Noordhuizen August 17, 2019 at 11:07 am Reply

        As you might know,Rick Simpson moved to the Netherlands (that’s where I live :-)) I don’t recommend his method;here’s some research by a dutch and an italian university,on the best solvent to make Cannabis oil,and your husband is using it already:


        One of the reasons olive oil is better than alcohol or Nafta: made with olive oil the end product contains more terpenes:

        “The use of olive oil as extraction solvent was found to be most beneficial based on the fact that it extracted higher amounts of terpenes than the other sol-vents/methods”

        Recent research shows the importance of terpenes; they play an important roll in the medical properties of Cannabis oil,and a lot of other natural remedies.

        The links in your mail brought me to the sign in page of your YT account;I guess something went wrong?

        Although I’m not a real piano lover,I did listen to some of your music,and I really loved it! It’s so relaxing,and it made me think of some of the better “New Age” music,I heard in the past.I really hope your situation will improve,and you’ll have a good piano at your disposal,again; what a waist of your talent,not to be able to use it fully.Your story is,in some ways,like the story of Nikola Tesla,to whom we own so much.After he helped Westinghouse with his financiel problems,Westinghous let him “rot away” in a cheap hotelroom,not being bothered at all about the waist of talent to which he,himself,owned so much.The American way?

        I think good,and bad people can be found,all over the world.One difference: you’ll have to search for a long time to find a good person,and friend,but you won’t have to search for the bad people at all:they will find you!

        I wish you,and your devoted husband,all the luck in the world,and an improved health in the future!

        • Jessica Williams August 18, 2019 at 10:49 am

          Dear Henk,

          I was in San Jose airport 35 years ago, and I was complaining about how many people were wonky, daft, and out-to-lunch. This man is front of me turned and said to me, “Lady, if there were more bad people than good, none of this would be here.” And I never forgot him, this man I had never met. Some words are just rue, and I believed in what he said even long before I met him, because people are as beautiful as angels sometimes. It’s important to maintain a “naive perspective”, even at my age, because it’s just who I am and who I always will be.

          My career gave me the opportunity to play a lot of piano in my 50+ years, but never have I listened so ardently to Valentina Lisitsa playing Beethoven, or Curtis Mayfield (Shaft) playing New World Order. Music still makes me smile, laugh, even feel a deep sense of peace at having been so lucky to be part of all that.

          I saw this interview with Joni Mitchell, and she was older . . . still beautiful, still, super-charged, and still full of her rage at the men who had “wronged her”.

          If I held grudges like that, I would paddling her raft with her, right into the waterfall . . . because it’s not “chance” how we go, it’s choice. If we can think at all through our floxation, we can decide to be heroes or zeroes. We don’t have to do anything special, just be there and be a force for good. Be remembered well, or not at all.

          It’s easy to write words. Words are useless in some situations. There are so many floxies that are so much more affected than I. I can still walk down the hallway. My life is 90 percent different now — but I adapt. I lived through two weeks playing duo with Stan Getz — I can make it through this.

          Henk, I love Holland, the tulips, the windmills in the countryside, the Van Gogh Museum winding through my days like millions of sunflowers, and peaking with his Japanese Prints, so unknown and so elegant, I love the Amsterdam Pizza (with corn), the Bimhaus, the smell of cannabis in the air, the health-care, the whole idea that is Nederlands. I lived in Copenhagen with Dexter Gordon’s wife for awhile and loved it. It was cold, but it was safe and civil, then. I am not so sure of now.

          Thank you Henk, for enjoying some of my music. It was so much fun to make.


          free downloads at my site, full albums:



        • joanneb4 August 18, 2019 at 3:23 pm

          Where is a safe place to get CBD oil and what protein powder do any of you use or collagen?

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 1, 2019 at 3:41 am

          Hi Jessica,thank you for your kind reaction,and the story of that man,telling you that there are more good than bad people.I agree,but I also know that óne bad person can destroy more than a bunch of good peolple can build up.And I see things changing fast;capitalism is like an evil religion,making so many people so egoistic.Sad to see this happen :-(( But a good reason to cherish good friendships !

          Joni Michell is one of my long time favorite female musicians;I especcialy love the life registration “Painting With Words”,where she playes in a small,rounded accomodation,with a selection of her paintings hanging on the wall,for only her family members (and maybe some best friends),sitting on ordinairy couches and chairs,like in a big living room.She is an amazing woman!

          Sorry,but I must correct you on Curtis Mayfield;not he,but Isaac Hayes who created the soundtrack for the movie “Shaft”.I remember well,because I’ve seen the movie,back then,in a theater,and a friend of mine had the record.Mayfield did make the soundtrack for Superfly (thanks,WWW;I had to do a search on that one ;-)) Although I’m not a great fan of soul music,My DJ name was Super Soul,which I lend from a darkskinned DJ in the movie “Vanishing Point”.My favorite “black” music : the Marvin Gay albums “What’s going on” and Let’s get it on””,which sold here as a double album.Great music! And,not to forget,the almost perfect “Papa was a rollin’ Stone” (long version,by The Temptations.

          What else I love? Loreena Mc.Kennitt,Moody Blues,Aphrodites Child (first and second album),but also Dvorak,Mozart,Tschaikovsky,Vivaldi,and sooo much more.Music played an enormous role in my life,but after my doc prescribed me Losec ( I didn’t need it,nor ask for it,but it was probably quite lucrative for himself),I started getting anoyed by more and more styles of music,untill it even got impossible for me to even listen to my own favorites,for longer than 10 minutes.Even Loreena “had to go on holyday” (Maybe you know her music.If not,you should really give it a try;great music,and a great personality as well!)

          After I stopped with the Losec,the problem of getting anoyed by almost every sound started to vanish,and with the first money I could spend on luxery,I bought a very good,but cheap MP3 Player (Sansa Clip+;what a shame that Sandisk stopped producing this model!),and a great,but not very expensive Grado headphone,and use them very often.My stereo is still on vacation because I have three neighbour girls,and most of the time like to hear music in the evening.And YES: I love the sound of my neighbour girls,playing,althought the have a fight every 5 minutes ( clear case of a love and hate relationship ;-))

          Although that rotten Cipro almost ruined my life for a second time (Losec,and a course of Metronidazoleand Amoxicillin where the first medical disaster in my life),both nature,music and looking and listening at the joy of happy,sad,fighting and quarreling children helped me to regain some joy in life,itself.

        • L September 1, 2019 at 10:36 am

          Marvin Gaye “What’s Going On”…YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and even more “timely” now) Ditto Mercy Mercy Me.

    • Lukasz August 17, 2019 at 1:02 pm Reply

      Yup. I somehow suffered a cut on my foot near my ankle, don’t even know how it happened but it was there, and it wouldn’t heal for many, many months. I’m talking like half a year or so. In the past, if I suffered anything of that sort, the cut would be healed within days or a few weeks at most. Now, everything takes ages to heal. There’s a very delayed response and I believe it may have something to do with White Blood Cells (WBC) which I believe are responsible for healing and immune response.

      Blood tests I’ve had in the past revealed low WBC counts. Prior to getting floxed, they were always normal. Need I say more?

      • L August 17, 2019 at 2:03 pm Reply

        Interesting. I hadn’t thought about this. I got a blood blister on my foot and a midwife/nurse told me it would be gone in a week or two. It finally left after—-2 1/2 months!

      • Don M August 17, 2019 at 3:05 pm Reply

        I know what not healing is like. I have a cat that delights in trying to grab my foot when I pass him. He always has a claw out while doing this. It leaves a pin point mark on my foot and leg. It is sometimes months before it finally disappears.

  27. L August 20, 2019 at 10:15 am Reply

    Well this really pisses me off. I had mentioned that someone could perhaps find a used copy of Dr Jay Cohen’s book, now that it’s out of print. Well, I went to the medication sense site which linked me to amazon sellers and the CHEAPEST was $94.74 going all the way up to (are you ready?) $706.70!!!!! (but hey, free shipping!) Amazon has a place to comment on pages so I did. This is just obscene. Now I am going to contact the publisher to see if they would do a reprinting….

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 20, 2019 at 10:40 am Reply

      L.,just a few weeks ago I bought a newly published oudition. I think I read something about this being an edited (by his children) audition of the original book,and the name changed as well: (What you must know about) The Hidden Dangers of Antibiotics (2018).Copyright: Barbara Isrow-Cohen (I guess this is his daughter).There is now dutch translation,yet,so I bought the original,englis version and payed € 14,31.On the back is a little price sticker;in GB it costs 13,99 Pounds (Deep Books ltd.).

      The original book was 206 pages,this edited version is only 130 pages,and the way it was edited is unkown to me.It’s not what you and I were looking for but it is the next best thing;the original version will ,probably,never be reprinted.All I hope is,that some owner of an original version book will scan it and share the scanned version in the P2P network,some day.This new book feels like,what we call here,in NL,”tailriding” on the popularity of the original,and the extreme prices on Amazon are justified,by the sellers,because of the rarity of books,for sale.

      The new book: ISBN 9780757004698 (paperback).

      • L August 20, 2019 at 12:13 pm Reply

        That’s good to know. I had though that that was an earlier book. Is it all about fluoroquinolones or does it include others as well? I tried contacting the publisher of the other book and it turns out it was a self-publishing company.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 20, 2019 at 3:01 pm

          Where J.Cohen was pointing to Cipro as the worst of the family of FQ’s,this book just talks about the FQ family,without concentrating on Cipro as the worst of the family,at least,they do that in the title of the book.This new book also seems to be 50 % shorter,so,I think that lots quite a bit of the original is “lost”. People who read it still think it is an important book but because I’ve never read the original I can’t compare on that.I will read it,as soon as I find the time for it;on my bed I only read dutch books,and with a more pleasant story,shortly before going to sleep.

          The “sub” title is:How the side effects of six popular antibiotics can destroy your health,so,I suppose it’s only about FQ’s. Also saw a thing about the contra-indication between steroids and FQ,s,and Part 2 of the book is about advices for floxies;of course magnesium is mentioned as an important and beneficial supp.,as do N-Acetylcysteine,Zink and vit. E,and other remedies.Wel worth the money,I guess.

        • L August 20, 2019 at 3:16 pm

          well I have the other book and the title gives cipro and Levaquin equal billing…but can’t remember now if it mentions any of the others inside. And yeah, those were the basic supplements he recommended in the other book. He had also suggested that if you HAD to take them (I would never ever again) that one should take magnesium four hours apart from it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 20, 2019 at 3:41 pm

          Hi L,any chance of you,digitizing it? Would be great! All the info that’s not in the new book,would otherwise be lost for humanity :-(( And for all the floxies.:-((

        • L August 20, 2019 at 5:26 pm

          No. A) it would take forever and B) as a writer myself I understand copyright laws—not something I would want to do. I have pretty much covered his important insights on this site a number of times

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 21, 2019 at 2:18 am

          L.,I understand.It was only because of the fact that this book is out of print,and will not get re-printed in the future,that I asked you.Taking photographs and puting them together in a PDF file would be a reasonable job,though.It is one of the books that Google Books will probably not publish on it’s Google Books,website,because of “conflicting interests”,being the interests of the Farmafia.

          The absurdly expensive one ($706,70),is “This book is not in the greatest shape, qualifying only as Acceptable condition.” Wauw!!!The “good” and “very good” ones are way cheaper.Review of this seller,Books in Demand: 1 out of 5 stars

          “My order was cancelled by the seller and the product I wished to purchase was marked-up $700.00 from order date. The book should have arrived today. There has been no contact from the seller about this development. Books in Demand cancelled my order in order to mark-up the price of this product. This seller should be taken off the Amazon platform.”

          I totally agree with this unhappy buyer !!

          Anybody noticed the Jay S. Cohen M.D. Foundation website also disappeared?

        • L August 21, 2019 at 7:01 am

          well like I said I contacted amazon about the entire page. It’s obscene. I think price gouging laws should apply. Here is the US it varies state to state, but basically you cannot raise the price of a commodity by more than a certain percent during / after an emergency, like bottled water after a fire or hurricane. To me, this is no different morally. Didn’t know about the foundation site, but the medication sense site, while still up, is obviously not being monitored since it still has info re if you want to contact him for a speaking engagement.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 21, 2019 at 2:31 am

          Guess what? This book,”only” $ 945,95 !!! What a world!! Of course,this is all about the same greed that makes so many people suffer from medication damage.


          According to the book seller this book is in good condition. :-)) Anybody???

        • L August 21, 2019 at 7:04 am

          That makes me so angry. Especially since it may have been originally purchased by someone who knows how hellish this can be, and how desperate people feel. I just hope no one ever buys it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 21, 2019 at 1:07 pm

          I saw an old page,with an old pricing (but no book in stock),and it said $ 15,50! Quite a difference! I guess that that is the original price,but since it is rare,now,and a collector’s item….

  28. Attila August 20, 2019 at 10:36 am Reply

    Hi! Can anyone answer me? l’m anxious during the day but when the afternoon comes and the evening this feeling vanish and my tinnitus also subsides?

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 20, 2019 at 2:36 pm Reply

      Atilla,I don’t have a clue about what causes this anxiety by day,vanishing at knight.The only person I met,in a far past,with this kind of problem,was an alcoholic.He never drank during the day,because of his work (didn’t want to loose his job),and complained about shivering and shaking,while at work,but as soon as he came home,he started drinking alcoholics and the symptoms disappeared.Not long after that period his mother found him on the floor os his appartment,in a diabetic coma,and he hardly survived.

      These symptoms might be bloodsugar related as wel,but I don’t understand that they don’t appear after you had a meal,but in the evening.Any way,you might by a bloodglucose meter and check;antibiotics do cause hyper- and/or hypoglycemia,and this is one of the problems that,at least in my case,don’t really disappear.But you can learn to control it with a diet,and I used a magnetic pulser (Beck protocol) which helped a lot.

    • L August 20, 2019 at 3:17 pm Reply

      I have no idea, but if you find out, let me know. I would LOVE my tinnitus to subside. It seems to have only 3 settings: barely tolerable, so unacceptable and where’s the scotch?

  29. Jessica Williams August 20, 2019 at 11:17 am Reply

    Dear Attila,

    The stuff you do during the day is likely to be unpleasant for you. Any stressor can trigger symptoms, right? I know with me, if I watch the news, I’m going to pay later in Karma of my own design.

    So I avoid any stress. I am older, and perhaps it is easier, because my health team is so organized, and I have little to worry about right now.

    The experts are finding that watching movies actually helps patients who are stuck in bed. I watched “The Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2” and never once though of my problems. Sometimes you just have to let your freak flag fly, and eat that Hagen-Daas Ice Cream or spend that $20 for “Endgame”.

    When my own evening comes, it’s husband, bed, (omg it feels good to lie down), sometimes a small snack like fruit or cottage cheese, my sleep meds, and the best cannabis I have. It’s not an addiction. It’s my medicine, prescribed by my physician, and it’s wonderful. I sleep soundly for the first time in my life. I take my RSO with milk and cinnamon. Okay, nutmeg and vanilla too. I have rituals. I rub marijuana cream into my joints.

    I am still ambulatory enough to get around the house by myself. I am lucky!

    Your tinnitus is a good indicator of heart rhythm and steadiness. When I can hear the crickets, I know I am making progress. It means the pressure is off and you can finally relax, and lordie have I know some uptight people that would not ever relax. Wired tight as drums. “White people waiting to die” could be a theme for my elderly neighbors, but for me, I choose the future, and I want to leave the world better for the children. This is all about the kids. I want to be the best role-model I can be.

    Good luck and love, Attila. It sounds like you have “Bright Moments”. Trust in those moments, and be a giver, always. Things will come to you as you need them, I pray.


  30. D August 23, 2019 at 7:20 am Reply

    I am assuming I’m not the only one seeing the last 3 posts about sex and dating apps?? Don’t know what is up with this? Somebody is an idiot or we have a hacker??? Everyone else seeing this??

    • Barbara Arnold August 23, 2019 at 8:12 am Reply

      It’s a Troll D. I ignored it.

      • Lisa August 23, 2019 at 8:14 am Reply

        I deleted them. Stupid spammers – sometimes they get through the filters.

        • Dee August 23, 2019 at 8:17 am

          I figured as much! Sure are some crazies out there!!!

    • L August 23, 2019 at 9:24 am Reply

      Yes, Best to ignore them. Then Lisa will take out the trash. 🙂

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 23, 2019 at 12:37 pm Reply

      Not a hacker but a troll.Might just be somebody trying to make an extra $ by spreading this kind of rubbish adds,but might also be an attempt to try to hack our PC’s,so: DON’T CLICK ANY OF THOSE LINKS !!! Just delete those mails,and I hope that Lisa will remove them from the website,as soon as possible.

  31. Fred S August 24, 2019 at 8:19 am Reply

    Hi – Has anyone had any issues with spa or pool chemicals after FQ issues? I would like to swim gently but am afraid of a reaction. Thanks

    • L August 24, 2019 at 9:38 am Reply

      Chlorine is not particularly healthy for anyone and especially problematic for those with asthma. Your best bet is a salt water pool. If that is not feasible I would say to give it a try. The exercise is valuable, especially swimming since it is easier on our flq-riddled joints. I was concerned because I do have asthma so I removed the chlorine disk in the morning before I went in, so it had dissipated some. At another pool, I knew what day the pool guy game so I would swim for the couple days before that when there was less chlorine, and I did fine. (I was more worried about an asthma flare at this point though…so no, it had no effect on my flq related symptoms)

      • Fred S August 24, 2019 at 9:41 am Reply

        Thank you – will let you know how it goes

        • L August 24, 2019 at 11:29 am

          You’re welcome. I don’t think you will have any issues, but do keep us posted

        • Fred S August 24, 2019 at 1:21 pm

          I swam 10 laps with no issues – shoulder hurt a bit but that was there before the floxing in mid August. I am doing my best to do the stuff I did before – just less of it.

        • L August 24, 2019 at 1:30 pm

          Great! I have had recent shoulder issues and wonder if it is related to the cipro….which was in 2015. No way to tell at this point. Glad did hear you did well.

  32. Fred S August 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm Reply

    Has anyone has success with the book “Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution” – is it worth the $40

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 26, 2019 at 4:17 am Reply

      Hi Fred,there’s a review from Lisa,here,on FloxieHope,in which she writes:

      “It is acknowledged in The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution that there are no easy answers about Fluoroquinolone toxicity. (Please don’t expect to find a cure for FQ toxicity in the e-book – as of yet, none has been discovered.)”

      So;the title of the book is very misleading,and the advices in the book can be found on FloxieHope and other FQ-websites,for free (That’s where the writer found them,I suppose).

      On the website from the book writers,themselves:

      “Everything you get inside The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution is based on fact, science, and testing, and it’s created by two people with over 27 years of combined medical experience.” They call themselves medical professionals,and they are: the main writer is a nurse,and the co-writes is a massage therapist.Neither of them are educated in this field,at all! With,together,over 27 years of COMBINED medical experience.Wauw;thát sounds impressive!And on the website they also repeat their false promises:”You will SAVE thousands of dollars AND finally get relief from your pain and suffering by simply following our step-by-step protocol…”

      Read for yourself (fqtoxicity dot com);I find the info on his website quite misleading,and if this book really helped so many people (must be many thousands),why are there so few good reviews on the website?Only ten happy buyers?Here is the vision on this book,by another Floxie,who spent thousands of hours researching FQ toxicity,and possible solutions (and put all his findings on his blog,for free!):


      I have not bought,or read this book;there are too many reasons not to buy,for me.I would rather buy the book of Lisa Bloomquist,herself (she is the person who created this website and brings us regular updates on FQ toxicity science). I’m gratefull for the way she makes it possible for us to exchange info and,sometimes,help others to regain part of their health after being floxed.That’s a very good reason to buy her book,don’t you think?Oh,and it doesn’t give you false promises,for $40,but an insight in the medical background of being floxed,for only $ 9 !

  33. Henk Noordhuizen August 26, 2019 at 4:33 am Reply

    Here some science on FQ toxicity,and suggestions on treatment:


    • L August 26, 2019 at 9:17 am Reply

      “ozonation has been described to be an effective method for removing the first generation FQ—flumequine from the liquid water [110]. Thus, ozone therapy can be examined to be a method of FQ degradation in the body.” One of the main things my ND did was give his floxie patient ozone (I was doing too much H2O2 which had too much overlap but likely the same effect). We all also were give high dose C IVs (50,000 mg). I think this explains why as incredibly damaged as I was, I have improved so much. I also have taken many of the other things suggested, but a bit later: mitoQ, NAC E, resveratrol, pqq.

      Good link Henk.

      • Fred S August 26, 2019 at 9:25 am Reply

        L Thank you. Can you explain the ozone treatment a bit – how does it work and how many times did you do? Regarding the C IV’s – how often did you do it?

        • L August 26, 2019 at 10:31 am

          Well the ozone is done a couple ways. For people that have a port, it goes directly into the port. Otherwise, they remove your blood, mix it with ozone and then it goes back into you via IV. Some places now have what is called a 10-pass machine, where they can do anywhere from 1-10 passes at a time. To those just starting out, they would likely only do one or two passes.

          As for the C…it’s been a few years and I can’t recall exactly, but definitely dozens of them. How many one does really depends on the damage. I was as bad as they come. Head to toe damage, peripheral neuropathy; breathing issues; vision issues; heart issues torn menisucus; olfactory nerve damage; psychiatric issues …over 30 side effects, some of them beyond terrifying. So I am sure I needed far more than the average floxie. I had also been on prednisone which is likely why the damage was so severe.

          As far as the high dose C, you will need a blood test first. There is a very tiny percent of the population that cannot do the high dose C. (This test is called the G6PC. If someone offers to do the IV without first doing this test, find another health care provider.)

        • Barbara Arnold August 27, 2019 at 6:28 am

          Hi Fred,
          My ozone Doctor does ozone autohemotherapy. He takes out a bag of blood through an IV, injects with ozone and puts it back again through the IV. I had 20 sessions . You can have two a week. He has been an ozone MD for 20 years and does not recommend 10 pass. He says his association of Ozone Doctors, a lot who are MD’s, say it can be dangerous as it puts to much pressure on the veins and can cause different problems. It’s banned in Europe. You may initially get a herx re action but that goes away. I started to feel better after about the sixth one. It’s not a cure, but for me it was a major help with pain and fatigue. I went back about a year later and had another lot after a fall which compressed my spine. This helped me again along with two injections of ozone in my tailbone which was giving me pain. It really helped.
          Another thing that really helped me was Hyperbaric Oxygen therapy. With that you have to go every day for around 30 day’s, so not viable for everyone.
          I also take Kratom for pain which again works amazingly for me. There is some bad publicity around Kratom, but when you really research it, it’s because the users who re acted badly were on other drugs legal and illegal. A ton more harm has been caused by opioid pain killers, NSAID’s than Kratom. Big pharma can’t patent it, as its a natural plant pain killer. It is attracted to pain receptors in the brain and acts like an opiod, but is not an opioid. Like anything it needs to be used responsibly in order not to become addicted or intolerant to it. I use it only when I’m in a lot of pain and I honestly could not manage without it sometimes. So like all recommendations here research first and then you can make an informed decision .
          I hope this has been of some help to you.

        • L August 27, 2019 at 9:02 am

          I just wanted to repeat that you can go to someone with a ten pass machine and only do one or two, or any number really. (My doctor thinks 10 pass is safe, but I never went past 5 with him.) Anyhow, using a ten pass machine does not mean you need to do ten passes.

        • Barbara Arnold August 27, 2019 at 9:51 am

          Precisely. That’s why I said it’s important to do your own research and make your own choice. Of course Doctors will maybe disagree especially in different Countries, but I prefer to ere on the side of caution. I really don’t know or understand about a 10 pass machine as it’s banned in Europe, and as my Doc has been practising for 20 years with ozone and is a member of the Ozone Federation in Europe, I trust him. There are a lot of inexperienced ND’s doing Ozone therapy out there, jumping on a bandwagon to make money. I can’t see how only a couple of ozone autohemotherapy sessions could do much. I didn’t feel any better until about the 6th or 7th session, but maybe it’s a different type of ozone machine ??

        • L August 27, 2019 at 10:18 am

          It’s actually not that different than if you had the blood removed, mixed with ozone and then sent back into your blood. It basically does the same thing, only a machine removed the blood, mixes it into a bag, and sends it back in. That’s why the doctor can set it to do it one time, two times, and so on.

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 26, 2019 at 10:49 am Reply

        Thank you,L. :-))

        I think that this might be even more important,and promising:

        “Supporting the mitochondrial replication in the cell—pulling more damage to apoptosis and proliferation of the more healthy ones: supporting the mitochondrial exchange (removing that destroyed ones and replication of that more healthy ones) is the necessary way in the case of irreversible mtDNA damage. The substance that is postulated to possess the ability to promote the mitochondrial biogenesis is pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) [107, 108]. This substance is also postulated to be OS protective”

        By the way,have you read the article about repositioning of fluoroquinolones from antibiotic to anti-cancer agents,the link that Don M. sent us? Here,the damage FQ’s did to us,floxies (mitochondrial and DNA damage),is brought up as the main reason why these poisons should be great cancer chemo medications.And Softenon,the first ever medical disaster in “Modern,science based medicine” is back,and has already made new victims. Here is that link,once more:


        • L August 26, 2019 at 10:53 am

          Yes, pqq has been on my “menu” for a few years. (and you probably know that Mercola has also recommended it in the past)

          As I was reading the piece re flqs for cancer treatment (for which they have already been used) I just kept thinking “yeah, maybe you’re killing the cancer, but what the hell kind of life are you going to end up with once the flqs have attacked all your mitochondria, good gut microbiome, and other systems and organs?”

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 26, 2019 at 11:24 am

          Well,one of the complaints of cancer patients,after having had the chemo,is:” I’m constantly very,very tired “.It is the way all chemo’s work: severely damaging ALL cells,in the hope that the strongest and healthiest survive,and,,restore enough to functionate,more or less,while the weaker ones die off (among which,the fast replicating cancer cells).

          I think Otto Warburg was right,and the real cause of cancer is mitochondrial disfunctioning. The changed gene expression is one of the symptoms,caused by the mitochondrial damage.This also explains why (recent research) the growth of chemicals in our society and the growth in the number of cancer patients follow the same line on a diagram;both are strongly connected.Mercola recently wrote an article about new research,confirming Warburg’s hypothesis.

          Here a list of medicines that cause mitochondrial damage,updated 1 year ago,and far from complete:


          A list of chemicals which damage mitochondra would be way longer but is,because chemicals don’t get tested for possible health damage,not possible to create because of the lack of data.

  34. RobertKAG August 26, 2019 at 10:42 am Reply

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  35. Fred S August 26, 2019 at 4:22 pm Reply

    Jessica As bad I feel, I want to trudge on (pain and all) for my angel wife. I want to make her proud of me. She actually told me she wishes she could take some of the pain to make me feel better. On another note, how did you justify the cannabis? Was it for pain relief or sleep improvement. Do you smoke it or do you ingest another way. Sorry to ask but I have never tried it in my life – certainly thinking about it to improve my quality of life.
    Thanks in advance

    • L August 26, 2019 at 8:51 pm Reply

      Just want to say that I am so happy your wife is so supportive! There have bee others on this site that have not been as lucky with their spouse. As for Cannabis…no justification necessary! It has so many therapeutic properties. But there are so many varieties and methods, you would do well to find someone who really knows a lot about it. (We have several shops in our town and each is a wealth of information.)

      • Fred S August 27, 2019 at 5:20 am Reply

        Thanks, L. Much appreciated. Not sure of the options in the Philly area bit will take a look. I really don’t want to smoke it because of the lung issues but prefer to ingest in food. Will look around here and see what I can find.

        • Barbara Arnold August 27, 2019 at 6:33 am

          CBD has helped a lot of people to. For me it reset my body clock, so from no sleep, acute and chronic insomnia to 6 or 7 hours a night now. It didn’t do anything for pain for me, but it has helped others. My other pist to you is above. Hope you see that.

        • Barbara Arnold August 27, 2019 at 6:35 am

          Oh dear….post not pist lol

        • L August 27, 2019 at 9:00 am

          yeah, I didn’t want to smoke it either. I have asthma, and inhaling it just was not an option for me. There are also a great many sources online describing the varieties and uses.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 27, 2019 at 9:37 am

          I know several people who inhale Cannabis smoke while having asthma,because the cannabis smoke helps to relax the lungs and bronchia.And recent research has shown that long time Cannabis smokers have a BETTER lung functioning than NON-smokers.The cause for this is not yet 100% clear (or researched), but scientits up came with the hypothesus that this better lung functioning is caused by the fact that Cannabis smokers use to inhale the smoke DEEP,and keep it in their lungs AS LONG AS POSSIBLE,to absorb as much cannabinoids as possible.Or:it’s a matter of (lung) training.Right!???

          Other research has shown that Cannabis smokers have a LOWER risk for lung cancer than NON- smokers.The researchers concluded that Cannabis gives a moderate protection against lung cancer,despite of the high amount of toxins in the smoke.This research was set up to PROVE that Cannabis smokers were in HIGHER risk of lung cancer but the result proved the opposit,to the amazement of the researchers,involved.

        • L August 27, 2019 at 10:16 am

          I have read that too, and I think it’s nonsense. ANYTHING burning a residue into your lungs is not good for them. And I recall in the “old days” trying to smoke it and just having terrible breathing issues.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 27, 2019 at 11:28 am

          The research was sent to me by a friend (MD degree,shortly after became director of a clinic in Belgium). He new that I was interested in that info,and still smoked hash and tobacco at the time (didn’t like grass,the leafy form and only smoked hashish,most of the time.).I quit smoking both hashish and tobacco because my brother was diagnosed with AML (a very agressive form of blood cancer;I still have lots of doubt about that diagnose),and I became his stem cell and T-cell donor.

          Never restarted smoking tobacco,nor hashish,since then;I’m clean for over 15 years,now :-)) In the meantime I was horrobly sick of an AB-corse (Metronidazole and Amoxicillin,which lasted for over 3 years!Sometimes I regret having stopped smoking hashish because now I know of the many health benefits; it might even help me in my actual situation of being floxed ;-)) I’d smoked both hashish and tobacco for almost 35 years,then;to stop smoking hashish was peanuts,compared to stopping to smoke tobacco!

          I remember that info being put in a Harm Reduction report,and it amazed me.There was one difference between grass smokers in America (the report) and in The Netherlands/Europa;in America people prefer to smoke the pure grass in a reefer (a small joint),while,here,most users smoke big joints with a mix of grass and tobacco.

          I have just done a search and found that article back! It’s dated 2005,and in the meantime smoking is out,and vaporizing is in,and a lot of other research has shown the medical benefits of Cannabis,on a wide variety of medical issues.But here’s the link to that “oldie”;


  36. Sheila rogers August 27, 2019 at 1:55 pm Reply

    Can someone address the depersonalization issue from being floxed I feel really weird and wondered what others experiences might be, thanks

  37. Fred S August 27, 2019 at 4:22 pm Reply

    Hi – has anyone had success with a glutton free or low glutton diet? I have read that some people have improved – other say they eat what they want (for the most part) with no issues.

    • L August 27, 2019 at 4:55 pm Reply

      It’s a good idea for all of us because our gut microbiome, linked to virtually all health issues, have been devastated. I thought it would be hard, but it’s really not. I would just avoid processed gluten-free foods. If you have to have bread, I would buy organic sour dough (made with starter). Lots of fruits and veges, and if you eat meat, make sure it is from a source that does not use antibiotics.

      • Fred S August 27, 2019 at 5:03 pm Reply

        Thanks, L. I like the idea of sour dough – do you make it yourself or find a source of it? I bought glutton free bread at Whole Foods and it was not real good.

        • L August 27, 2019 at 8:05 pm

          I’d have to make it in a toaster oven! Sour dough still has gluten but the way genuine sour dough is made, with starter, seems to have a positive effect on it. Even most people with gluten sensitivities can eat it. But it has to be authentic (made from starter) and I would try to find ones that do not have folic acid added. Unfortunately in the US, many baked items especially have added folic acid. And if it turns out you have genetic mutation where you cannot utilize it, and you need to take genuine folate, it actually builds up in your system and becomes toxic. Still it’s not hard to find. Trader Joe’s has some with folic acid but more recently came out with a whole grain one that doesn’t. Pretty much any health food store will have it. Even some grocery stores.

          There is also a very expensive “bread” called BUK…not sure if you can get it anywhere that is made with NO grains…very healthy, very heavy, not really good for sandwiches but great for toast

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 28, 2019 at 1:30 am

          L.you might try to use the primitive method,my Moroccan neightbours used.They made the flat breads you’ll often see in Turkish and Moroccan backeries.They form the dough in a pancake form,4-5 mm thick,and let it rise on a wooden surface,covered with a moist towel.After the rise period,in which the volume doubles,it’s bakes in a hot skillet,with a lid on it,and turned over several times to prevent it from getting a too dark crust untill it’s done and ready.I’ve tried this methode,myself,and had some success,but,having an oven,stopped after the experiment. Just nice,to know that it is possible to bake bread without an oven,e.g. while camping.

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 28, 2019 at 1:19 am

          Fred,you can bake your own folic acid free bread,and the so called no knead method makes this bread low in phytic acid as well,because of the long rise time.Because you don’t have to knead this bread,there’s less work in preparing the dough (just mix the ingredients),and it tastes way better than traditionaly made bread.Apart from an oven you’ll need a cast iron pan and lid,and a source of wheat flour,with no folic acid added.How you bake your bread:


          I buy my at a mill,about a kilometer from my home,and only make full wheat spelt bread,but when you have the MTHFR-gen mutation,ask the seller if there’s no folic acid added,to be sure.When baking bread,at home,it’s good to know that,when not using “baker’s salt” (enriched with iodine),you’ll have to get your iodine from other sources,like fish,etc.to prevent a defficiency.

        • Fred S August 28, 2019 at 4:26 am

          Thank you to everyone for your help

  38. Fred S August 27, 2019 at 4:40 pm Reply

    My recovery 12 days out is going slowly but progressing. Sleep is a bit better with melatonin (and maybe PQQ). Joint pain has subsided (not sure why). I am able to do coffee again. The fog lifts some /most of the day – still have cases of fog at work (just not myself). My eyes still get dry – I use drops a few times a day or put a warm cloth over my eyes. Hopefully this goes away. The one thing that I do notice is I feel no joy or happiness with things I normally love – music, books, sports. Also my libido is gone which sucks. Maybe it is depression – not sure. Does anyone else have these issues? is it PTSD? Appreciate any comments.

  39. Fred S August 27, 2019 at 5:08 pm Reply

    I head a few people mention Kratom as a supplement to ease pain and anxiety. If you have experienced why type / dosage would you recommend. I see it for sale at various sites but am a bot afraid to try it. Thanks

    • Barbara Arnold August 27, 2019 at 9:56 pm Reply

      Fred I’ve answered your question on ozone and Kratom above. You need to scroll up to see it.
      If you are only twelve days out and have improved slightly your doing well. You are now in a marathon not a sprint.
      The feelings you have are all side effects and will take some time to recover.

  40. R August 28, 2019 at 11:03 am Reply

    The best thing you can do for yourself if you’ve been floxed… Is to give up. That’s the stage I’ve finally reached after 4 years of this hell. I went from being an active, athletic 29 year old, to a crippled 33 year old who gets to watch all of his friends enjoy life while I’m left behind and unable to explain to people what’s wrong with me. Anyone I’ve tried to convince about my problems has treated me as a crazy person.

    I’ve scoured the internet and tried every option, but nothing has helped. I’m giving up. You should all do yourselves a favor and do the same. Just become a hermit. Its the best life people like us can hope for at this point.

    Even the recovery stories are super depressing. Someone is floxed for 5 years, and itll be a person who used to be super athletic/active etc., and they’ll declare that they have recovered because they can now go on a leisurely half-mile walk outside without too much pain. If thats the best we can hope for, its time to give up hope. Goodbye.

    • L August 28, 2019 at 11:21 am Reply

      I’m sorry you feel this way, but that’s horrible advice. My guess is that you have not tried “everything.” I had such nightmarish side effects, effecting every part of my body, including my vision and my breathing, that I prayed for death for the first year. But I am now 4 and 1/2 years out and even though I do still have some side effects, likely permanent, I am back to doing most things I did pre-floxing. I have had over 100 IVs. I have spent probably around 50-60 thousand at this point on IVs, supplements, acupuncture and more. I had no money to begin with, so I borrowed and begged and did what I had to do. The choice between going in to debt or living the nightmare I was in, was no choice at all.

      Have you sought the help of an ND or integrative doctor who has actually treated floxies? Have you done IVs? Have you looked into stem cells?

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 28, 2019 at 12:39 pm Reply

      R.,who do you think you are,to give other people the “advice” to:”do yourselves a favor and give up”,like you do ?? What right do you think you have to (try to) take other person’s hope away?

      ” I’m giving up. You should all do yourselves a favor and do the same” shows that,while your body and psychological system may be heavily damaged,it is your mentallity that is the real problem,here,trying to convince other floxies to give up,just because YOU did! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

      You write that you tried everything,yet I can’t remember I’ve seen you on FloxieHope,before,discussing possible solutions,here,with us.Never seen a message from you,telling about your experiences with differend supplements,therapies and exchanging information,you found and wanted to share with us.The only thing you obviously want to share with us is your despair!

      I guess,the main reason nothing works for you is because of your negativity.I have a book,bought decades ago,written by Dr. Steven A. Rosenberg,M.D.,Ph.D.,published in 1992,titled “The Transformed Cell”.(ISBN 90 229 8066 9)

      He discovered,while working as an oncologist,how important a positive mentality is when fighting a serious illness.He saw people come in,diagnosed with an uncurable form of cancer,but very possitivaly minded,who lived way longer than predicted;some even fully healed,while others,with a good chance of survival,but very negatively minded,died while doctors who witnessed it happen wondered why they didn’t manage to cure this person while they should have,considering the physical state of this patient.Yes;having a possitive mentality is thát important! And thát’s why I am so angry,because you try to manipulate us into sharing your negativity and your despair!

      I hope you will find the above mentioned book,read it,change your mentallity and come back,here to do what we all do,or,at least,try to do.First of all,chear each other up,and then share information about what helped each of us (but will not always work for everybody).You are floxed 4 years ago,and should have known by now that,depending on how badly damaged you were,right after you became a floxie,how long it took before you started supplementing magnesium (the most important supp. for floxies,without any doubt),and your age and physical fitness at de date you were floxed.Well,at your age you have a lot more to gain than many of the older floxies,here,of whom you just tried to take their precious hope away.

      Throw your despair out of the window,read that book and change your mentallity.After that,come back and join us in our journey along the long and winding roads of being floxed.Good luck!

      • ChristmasCarla August 28, 2019 at 11:13 pm Reply

        Hank, thank you for your words to that young man. I completely agree that attitude has a major role in healing. I’m seven years fighting to heal, and I’ve been thru most of the difficulties I read about on here. I’ve developed a five-part healing program that is working for me — slowly, but working — and I intend to post it on here as I develop the text.

        To start with, the five parts are: 1. release toxins from the body; 2. deal with the damage the toxins have done; 3. put only healthy substances back in the body; 4. resume gentle exercise as you can; and 5. maintain the absolute certainty that you are healing.

        I haven’t been contributing much to this site the last few years, but I’m very grateful for its existence and the help that is shared. I’ve considered it an obligation to dispense information to people, warning them about the side effects, advising them to tell their doctors they are “allergic” to FQs, and also referring them to this site.

        Now I’m coming back to share more information, and it’s nice to see that most contributors, even while in the stage of emotional and mental distress, are struggling toward recovery. Your posts are encouraging and informative, and I’m glad to see it.

        • Fred S August 29, 2019 at 3:57 am

          Thank you. I would be very interested in hearing the details of your program. I am new to this and trying to make a plan.

    • Fred S August 28, 2019 at 4:28 pm Reply

      R: I am newly floxed and also scared that I will never be the same. I have had my own melt downs with feelings of depression and despair. I am a 58 yr old active man who was very active. I have improved in the last few weeks but have a long way to go. I often think to myself ‘what’s the point – I will never be the same’. BUT – if I can get back to 50-75% of my pre-flow workouts I will be ok. Also, I do it for my wife – I would never give up or worse yet (take myself out) because of the pain that would cause her. She knows I am better than that. I realize that the things I enjoy in life may change but I will try. You should think long and hard before you give up. One thing I am trying to do to make a plan based on the feedback of the wonderful people on this site. I also plan to see a ND in a few days in the Philly area (conventional medicine is not wired to handle this) and validate my plan and get IV treatments. If that does not work I will see Dr. Ghalili at Regenerative Medicine LA but I will keep trying. What other choice do I have?

    • Barbara Arnold August 28, 2019 at 11:58 pm Reply

      Even the recovery stories are super depressing. They’ll declare that they have recovered because they can now go on a leisurly half mile walk outside without to much pain ????

      What a load of croc.

      I am four and a half years out and I have flown long haul on vacation three times. I’ve flown to Countries in Europe. I’ve seen the world and found there’s ALWAYS some-one worse off than me. During this period, my husband got Cancer and I saw him through that. We went to the darkest place you could go, do you think we even “thought’ we would give up once?? no no no. Today he’s recovered, he still has a little way to go, but every day there is more improvement. He’s ALIVE and so am I and we are grateful for that. We make our lives as normal as possible. Do you think life should be a bunch of roses ? If you do, your dissapointment will be huge, because NO-ONE escapes life no matter what.
      You can be a defeatist if you choose, that’s the easy way, but if you choose to never give up, you WILL have a great life. You have to adapt to the new reality.
      Last night was not good for me, I had a lot of pain in my ankles, I had a cry, turned over, blew my nose and went back to sleep. This morning I’m getting up, going for a swim, then going for lunch with friends. My life is blessed with people that love me. I’ve got rid of the people that did not support me.
      You really don’t have any right to tell others to ‘give up’. If you choose to do that, that’s up to you, but you will be missing out on so much life, while your feeling sorry for yourself. You need to give yourself a good talking to.
      I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just think, your going through some bad depression at the moment. There are natural remedies to help with that. Fix that, change your mindset and move on to life.
      By the way I was floxed at 72 years I am now 76 years, still here, still enjoying life, still adapting, if I can do it you can. You have all the odds in your favour. You are young, my guess is you will recover to a point you will be happy with. So get on with it.

  41. Madge Hirsch August 29, 2019 at 9:39 am Reply

    Well said Barbara. Even if the “new normal” is a lot worse than the pre flox normal there is still hope it will improve. At 33 there is still plenty of time to recover. Maybe us oldies are just better at putting up with pain and disability. I could not do long haul flights 20 years ago due to the seats being instruments of torture for my back but I can still climb on our motor bike and do short trips to neighbouring departments.
    I have just had my check up blood tests and discovered that my TSH has risen a lot so maybe my latest relapse has been so bad because of that. I have put my thyroid meds up a bit but have to be careful not to increase too quickly for fear of provoking my afib .I have had a lot of pain down my right leg and muscle cramping. The muscle cramps have improved here’s hoping the pain will too. Where do you buy your kratom? I have experimented with using CBD oil topically for my painful knees and I think it has helped. There was an interesting program on BBC 2 last night about medical cannabis. Hope your ankle pain improves soon.

    • Barbara Arnold August 30, 2019 at 3:42 am Reply

      Hi Madge, yes I saw the programme, but most of it was old news. Doctors saying what we already knew. Still it may do some good for those that dont know.
      Sorry you still have this pain and other issues, it makes me mad. I get my kratom from kraatje.eu They are very good. I buy Red Thai powder, but turn the powder into capsules. I cant stand the taste of kratom. I bought the capsules and capsule maker on Amazon. I take 8 capsules when I really need to. The pain goes in 15 minutes. The kraatje site gives you lots of useful information. There are also a lot of other bits of information on google.
      I hope you feel better soon. xx

      • Madge Hirsch August 31, 2019 at 5:19 am Reply

        Well I’m hoping putting up the thyroxine will help but it takes 4/6weeks for a new dose to stabilise so it will be a slow process. I had any itchy eye a few nights ago and rubbed it a bit (too much!) . When I looked in the mirror I had the most appalling oedema all round the eye -elephant man stuff. I have never had anything as bad as this before and it took 2 days to go away. I’m wondering if this is to do with my wonky thyroid or just another gift from Cipro!

  42. A.Coleman August 29, 2019 at 1:57 pm Reply

    Hi everybody – just a quick update to let you know I am still here and unlike R – still planning for complete / nearly complete healing someday. I haven’t posted in over a month I see. Thankfully that is due to feeling better not worse. I have seemingly turned the corner on my light-headedness and head pressure / headaches. They are still present 24 hours a day; but much less impactful (level 1 to 3 now) and I have had a few really good days since the beginning of August.

    I have developed a pretty complex theory about what caused them but it boils down to Cerebral Spinal Fluid leaks. The dots all line up with that as the cause and even explain some of my other symptoms.

    I also wonder if anyone has been to a sleep center to get help with insomnia? Before floxing I slept like a baby (8 hours plus nightly) – now post floxing I typically get around 5 to 6 hours of sleep a night and that is interrupted. I typically go to sleep fine but wake around 2 and spend at least an hour or more awake. Some nights I never get back to sleep.

    Insomnia is better than when I was first floxed, but not a lot. I will go through stretches of sleeping through the night for four or five days but then revert to waking up around 2 for the next month or so. I have tried everything – melatonin, valerian, cherry juice (which is really natural melatonin), and more. Narcotics work and I do have a bottle of Ambien, but I have only taken 4 or 5 since I was floxed. My rule is not to take them unless I sleep 4 hours or less for three nights in a row prior. I am thinking about going to a sleep clinic for counseling. Only thing that kind of works is no computer / tv at least an hour before bed combined with getting up after 30 minutes of being awake in the night and then not using computer / tv and going back to bed 30 to 45 minutes later. Needless to say my reading has increased a lot, as has listening to music (quietly without earbuds) – LOL.

    Anybody have any advice that doesn’t include any of the herbals I have already tried?

    My 4 year floxiversary is coming up next month. I will post a detailed message updating my symptoms and their improvements then.

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 29, 2019 at 3:03 pm Reply

      Hi,A.Coleman,nice to see you back:-)) Have you tried Magnesium L-Threonate? It passes the blood/brain better than any other form and,regarding sleep problems,might work better than those other forms;I surely noticed improvement but it’s too expensive for me to use on a daily base..Best time to use will probably be 1-2 hours before going to sleep.I noticed that drinking a strong cup (or two) of Camomilla tea before bedtime improves sleep quality and when I wake up after 5 hours,like I do after being floxed,I fall asleep again quite quickly,most of the time.

      I am used to reading on my bed,since I was a child,untill my eyes get tired,and this,too,helps me to fall asleep quicker.I’m having sleeping problems since I was a teen,but for the last 20 years I wake up tired,even exhausted,every morning,and sleeping longer seems to make things worse,but,now and then I sleep quite well,without interruption,for about 8 hours,and then is when I feel best.Still tired,but not as bad as usual.Alcohol works in an unpredictable way;sometimes I have a great night,and sometimes I’m awake way too early,having probles to fall asleep,again,and feel terrible next day.Not a solution;more like kind of a gamble.

      Like you wrote;you’re doing (almost) anything,possible to sleep well.The only things you might add are the magnesium L-Threonate and the Camomilla tea,and for myself,I’m thinking of a restart of my TM (Transcendental Meditation) protocol,2 times 20 minutes,every day.I hope that this will help me to relax better while I sleep.

      Thank you for letting us know you’re doing better. Makes me,and I’m sure,the rest of us happy to hear,especially after the negativity,R. threw over us,2 days ago.I don’t want to be too hard on the guy because I know,when in a depression,it’s so easy to forget the joy of small things,like the warmth of the sun on your skin (well;not at 37 degrees,like it was a month ago ;-)) ,the birds,singing in my garden,my youngest neighbour girl,singing softly while playing in the backyard,when her elder sisters are at school.

      Wouldn’t want to miss that for the world;the sound of her soft songs,of which I don’t understand a single word (she’s Polish),are like a warm blanket around my heart,and may be the best medicine one can get,if you’re open for it to “do it’s work”.After getting floxed,like with other nasty experiences,I had to learn to enjoy those kind of things again.The smell of flowers,and their beauty,nice sounds,like the singing of my neighbour girl or my favorite music,etc.But,once you open up to these little joys it gets easier to accept the things,being floxed took away from you.This guy,R. is still young and has a lot to learn,but he also has way more time to do so,compared to many of us,being “older youngsters” ;-))

      Please,let us know about next experiences of what works,or doesn’t work for you,handling your sleeping problems.Many,if not most of us have same problems,and because sleeping is of extreme importance for recovery and overall health,it’s of concern to us all.

    • Fred S August 29, 2019 at 3:03 pm Reply

      I have had the same issue. Prior to my incident I slept 10:30 pm to 6:30 am. Now it is 10:30 to 4:30. Toying with the idea of CBD but have not pulled the trigger yet.

    • L August 29, 2019 at 4:41 pm Reply

      Glad you’re feeling better.

      I had tried pretty much herbal remedy known for sleep and none worked for me. But at my worst (NO sleep at all) I also had the horrific breathing issues, where it felt like as soon as I started to take a breath a door would slam shut and prevent any air. It was truly terrifying. Like being suffocated 24/7. So I did go on ambien just because it was the only reprieve I got from the breathing nightmare. But even WITH the ambien, initially, I would only get 1-2 hours of sleep before jolting upright in bed, gasping for air.

      But then I started getting a little more sleep. And a little more. When I got to around 6 hours (which was several months later) I started to wean myself off the ambien. I don’t think you necessarily need to, but I thought perhaps I could “trick” my body that way that it didn’t need it anymore. It worked, and soon I was sleeping 6-7 hours without it. Then eventually I got back up to 8, which is where I like to be. I still have occasional insomnia maybe once or twice a month, but I think many people do, so I’m ok with that.

      I would never encourage anyone to take ambien, but I think if you do, it helps to go in with a plan. I had always planned to wean off when I got to 6 hours or so. So I think that and time were what did it for me. Also I figured sleep is better than no sleep, with or without drugs, even though it may not be the same level of sleep. But I also had dozens of other side effects, so who knows how it may have been impacted by the IVs I was doing for everything else…

      • A.Coleman August 30, 2019 at 6:53 am Reply

        L – the approach you outlined was what I was kind of considering. I see my integrative medicine doc in a few months and plan to ask her about a limited course of Ambien. I was thinking a month then start weaning off with a goal of being completely narcotic free by 6 weeks.

        I did use Ambien about 6 years ago when I fought a little insomnia tied to kicking an anti-depressant and it helped me get back to a normal rythym and “coach” my body to an acceptable sleep pattern.

        HENK – I do not use Mg Threonate; but have considered giving it a try. My current protocol is Mg glycinate 300 mg split 100 mg AM and 200 mg PM. I tried Dr. Dean’s picomagnesium but felt it didn’t work as well for me as the chelated Mg. Luckily I can afford to at least try the Mg Threonate and I will keeping the Mg glycinate in the AM.

        Thanks everyone and have a great holiday weekend those of you in the USA

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 30, 2019 at 7:41 am

          Hi,A.Coleman,I,too,use Mag.Glycinate,every day;one 500mg tablet,just after noon,having finished eating my dinner.I gave Magnesium L-Threonate a try,some months ago;bought 2 packages and used one,back then.One package left;will use that in the near future.It says: 3 capsules a day,containing (total of 3 caps)) 144mg magnesium,out of the 2000 mg magn.L-Threonate.

          First night I used one (I only use one/day),I had a nightmare,but when I started again,a few days later,I fell fine and had no further problems,only positive effects (better sleep,calmer feeling in head and body) during the next 30 days,untill I finished that first package,which lasted for some weeks after use.Great supplement,but too expensive,for me,to use daily.

  43. Fred S August 29, 2019 at 6:06 pm Reply

    First semi-normal brain day at work – I actually made through the day and a number of meetings with a very clear mind. Not sure if it was vitamin D (which I found I was very low on from a blood test), the B12 or the 3000 mg of vitamin C. Whatever it was I want more of it.

    • joanneb4 August 29, 2019 at 7:09 pm Reply


      What vitamin D, B12 and C did you take? I’m low too.

      Jo Anne

    • A.Coleman August 30, 2019 at 6:49 am Reply

      Fred – as a relatively new floxie I am glad to see you got your vitamin levels checked and found out you were low in D. It took me 8 months post floxing to get a Vitamin D check and then it was very low 13 ng/ul. I started supplementing heavily but due to the digestive system havoc the FQ caused levels didn’t go up much. What I have learned is that it is VERY IMPORTANT to get out in the sun as much as possible; especially in the summer and build up those reserves for the winter. Don’t burn; but do get sun. Assuming you are in the northern hemisphere and the time to soak up the sun and create Vitamin D is starting to wane; but get what exposure you can (in safe chunks) over the next month and start supplementing.

      • Henk Noordhuizen August 30, 2019 at 7:19 am Reply

        For people,not able to be in the sun,enough to bring vit. D to optimal levels,there’s a convenient solution,made by Philips: the narrowband UVB TL lamp (311 nM). This light frequenty is not only optimal for treating skin problems but also to level up your vit. D. You’ll have to use good UV-protection for your eyes,and build up the time of use,from 15 seconds,up to 2-3 minutes,and a distance from 50-100 cm.

        Very important for getting vit. D by sunlight: don’t take a shower,every day;you need a layer of skin oil (= mainly cholesterol) for the production of vit. D,and you’ll need at least 1,better,even,,2 days to absorb the vit.D through the skin.Well scheduled;you can have 2 light sessions,and 2 showers a week,and have optimal vit. D production,every week.No problem during the winter,and during summer you can use Colloidal Silver,or baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonat,as a natural deodorant.

        This works fine for me,but I never tested my vit.D,yet,ecause of the costs.What worries me is,that I had a lot of sun,this summer,but my skin is as pale as it was at the start of spring.Have read,somewhere,that the Melanin production,in floxies,is often damaged.This means that the protection,others get from their tainted skin,will not be there for those floxies,so,extra care is needed,tot to get a sunburn,from the sun,OR from the lamps I mentioned:


  44. Fred S August 30, 2019 at 4:40 pm Reply

    How do you guys deal with the natural depression / blues / anxiety you get with this malady? I see people (especially where I work) living normal lives exercising, drinking and having fun while I am left to taking my regime of supplements. The other horrible aspect of this malady is the uncertainty of what will happen in 5,10 or 15 year – it really drives me crazy. Today it became overwhelming and had this feeling suffocation (almost panic) – very odd. Does anyone get these thoughts and how do you deal with it? Thanks

    • Don M August 30, 2019 at 8:59 pm Reply

      Fred S…….. Research CBD oil. Try it. Be sure it is good quality and from a reputable company. There is a lot of worthless junk out there and it will do you no good. This mistake leaves a lot of people thinking that CBD oil is nothing but snake oil. It does work for anxiety.
      Good info at https://www.thecbdistillery.com/

      • Fred S August 31, 2019 at 4:49 am Reply

        Thanks. Will give it a try. Lack of sleep is also a real issue – may help with that.

    • Henk Noordhuizen August 31, 2019 at 3:25 am Reply

      Fred,like Don M wrote,CBD oil has helped a lot of people,here.You might also try Magnesium L-Threonate,which easily passes the blood/brain barrier (other magn.supps do not,or in a way lower degree). And vit. B Complex is very important for mental health.

      Things that also work very well are activitieslike working in the garden,bycicling/walking in nature,and there’s meditation.A combination of both the supps and the activities probably work best.

      Even singing and whistling songs helps.I discovered this decennia ago,and when I told friends,they didn’t believe me and thought I fooled myself,untill an article,published a while later,wrote that research had shown that whistling caused the body to produce the hormones,that fit to the action (serotonine and other “happy” hormones). There are even therapies built around these findings,later on,which make most people more happy. Except for the producers of antidepressiva,that is ;-))

      • Fred S August 31, 2019 at 5:03 am Reply

        Thanks, Henk. Will give it a try. The cumulative effects of this sleep issues, joint pain (and inability to exercise hard), some head fog and the uncertainty can be a real issue. Hard exercise such as cycling or weightlifting has been my therapy prior to this to help me deal with work or other issues (the endorphins and sleep made everything good). Also, my life had great certainty – no medical issues. Now all of this is gone and need to adapt somehow. Also, I sense a double impact on my mental well being. The toxicity damage creates mental issues and also takes away the remedy (ability to exercise). All of this makes me feel I am being suffocated – like someone is pressing a pillow on my face and I am unable to breathe. Horrible feeling which I have never encountered.

      • Fred S August 31, 2019 at 5:45 am Reply

        Hi Henk – one more question on the Camomilla tea. I made the mistake of drinking green tea a week ago and had horrible headaches – later found out that green tea has a lot of natural Fluoride. Is the Camomilla tea free of Fluoride?

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 31, 2019 at 6:39 am

          Hi Fred,black,green and white tea are high in fluoride;even one cup of Pu Ehr tea gave me a relapse (Pu Ehr tea is known for low fluoride).Camomilla tea is safe,and so are most other flower- and herbal tea’s,as far as I know.

          All of us have problems,adapting to this new,and sometimes very nasty situation,and the uncertainties,it brings.FQ-toxification is unknown to the public,and most people around floxies,think it’s all between the ears,which makes things even worse. Don’t blame them;it’s almost unimaginable that a few ,pills,taken weeks,months or even years ago,can give such severe problems.After all,it was an antibiotic,and those AB’s are ment to heal you,and not supposed to do the opposite,right?

          That’s why working on both your mental and physical condition in a sensible way is so very important.And while doing so,don’t forget about all the weak spots,the FQ’s created.Better enjoy nature by bike,and do 2,3,or even 4 miles than run around the block for just 1 mile,and have muscle- and tendon problems for days or weeks.Better to do some meditation (I have done a TM course,20 years ago;this works well,as do other forms),than doing something that excites you.

        • Fred S August 31, 2019 at 6:49 am

          Thank you, Henk. Great advice. I was researching the magnesium l-threonate and it mentioned that it gives approx. 144 mg of Mag from a 2000 mg (3 capsule) serving. Is that enough mag or is less needed because it is used so efficiently in this form? Would someone typically take other forms of mag along with this?

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 31, 2019 at 8:55 am

          Fred,that’s the same as on my package,and there is also the advice to take the 3 caps,spread over the day,and not use more.I actually take just one,( money,money,money :-(( and sometimes add 1 Magn. Bisglycinate 500mg (don’t know how much elemental magn.is in Magn.Bisgl.),ánd I use 1 x Vit. K2 100 mcg,every day for a better Calcium/vit D uptake.You migt like to read this Mercola article,explaining the importance of a balanced supplementation of Magn,Calcium,Vit D and K2:


        • Fred S August 31, 2019 at 4:44 pm

          Henk – great advice on the Chamomile – very good and relaxing. I had always been a coffee after dinner person (the stronger, the better) and could sleep no problem. The tea is a good replacement for this.

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 1, 2019 at 2:03 am

          Fred,I’m glad it helps you.There are more relaxing teas,in case you’d like some variation: Passion Flower,Lavender,etc. Do a search on “relaxing tea”,or “calming tea”,and you will probably find even more. Camomilla is the one I know best,and it’s easy to find bio-grown Camomilla.Thirty years ago I picked it in a field,100 meters frome my home,and dried it for the winter.I buy it now because my nearby picking place has gone;all buildings,there,now :-((

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 1, 2019 at 2:06 am

          Oh,and a tasty mix,which you might like:Chamomilla and a slice of ginger.Even more tasty with a bit of honey :-))

      • L August 31, 2019 at 11:30 am Reply

        I had to laugh when I read your post because while whistling might help the whistler, It drives me and a segment of the population absolutely nuts. It’s like nails a chalkboard. In fact, I could never understand why commercials sometimes have people whistling, because it makes me run for the remote. Perhaps we have misophonia, since I also can’t stand to hear people chew. http://www.misophonia.com/symptoms-triggers/

        Not sure about singing, but humming is great because it helps stimulate the vagus nerve, that helps with inflammation and connects the nervous system to the heart, lungs stomach and other organs. (if you do a search, Lisa did a piece on the vagus nerve a while back.)

        • Henk Noordhuizen August 31, 2019 at 12:37 pm

          I recognize that,L.,I had the same,for years,because of a severe magnesium deficiency;couldn’t even listen to my most favorite music for longer that 5-10 minutes.After ca. 15 years of Losec/Omeprazole I was rushed to the hospital in an ambulance,2 times in two weeks,because of severe heart arrithmea.

          After the second time,and a hefty discussion with the heart specialist (“This can NOT be caused by Losec;do you know how many people use Losec?” Real science at work,here:because so many people use Losec,it MUST be safe!??),I quit the Losec,and had a hell of a time,with acid refluxes like I never had,before,but had no problems with my heart,again,untill the first pill of Cipro.

          After a while I noticed that the “sound super-sensitivity” slowly vanished,and the first thing I did was buying a nice MP3-Player (sorry;a FLAC player;MP3 sounds like sh..!),and a good,but not very expensive headphone.But I do agree: people,whistling very soft are quite annoying,most of the time,but there are a few people who can really produce nice sounds while whistling.Somewhere in the 70’s there was an artist who became famous and popular with his whistling records;can’t remember his name right now (but I can whistle the whole record for you :-))

          Have a nice sunday,everybody :-))

    • Madge Hirsch August 31, 2019 at 5:43 am Reply

      I am pretty sure I was first floxed 30 years ago and again 20 years ago. I spent most of the 90s wondering what was the matter with me. I had no internet and used to go to serious bookshops and brouse medical textbooks. I only found out about floxing in 2015 after what I think was my 4th encounter with a fluoroquinolone. It was only when I looked back I could see the start of floxing symptoms such as Achilles tendon pain , severe back and knee pain , plantar fascitis etc starting after having antibiotics and realised I had probably been floxed. I recovered to some extent in between exposures. My last two floxings here in France were in 2014 and 2015. Luckily I had more instant reactions. In 2014 I was in hosp on an iv Cipro /Flagyl drip for diverticulitis. When I started gettin neuropathy and tachy they stopped the Cipro but the cow gastroenterologist did not tell me I had had a reaction to it just that I did not need it anymore! In 2015 my gp gave me Cipro for a suspected UTI and this time I had an instant reaction with visual effects I remembered from the hospital after one capsule. Then I looked it up. So far I am unaware if my earlier floxings have given me anything really serious. The accumulation has given me lots of musculoskeletal problems though. There is no point in worrying about 20 years hence. Just concentrate on recovery from this floxing and never take the bloody poison again.

  45. Fred S September 1, 2019 at 8:16 am Reply

    Hi – General question as I navigate through this. The number of supplements can be dizzying – I see a new blog that someone used something different (and it worked) and wonder where it fits in the picture. There seems to be so many issues with taking the right amount of X with Y. I am thinking of going with a good, solid multi-vitamin base (to ensure I get everything if my diet fails) and add more where needed (for example Mag). Would appreciate any advise. Thanks

    • L September 1, 2019 at 10:44 am Reply

      I don’t think a multi is the answer. It has too little of everything, and of the specific supplements you want, you may not find at all in a multi. Personally, I think it’s a waste of money. You want to get as much nutrient-wise as you can from diet. Then supplement for the issues you need to address.

      • Fred S September 1, 2019 at 12:19 pm Reply

        Thanks, L. No sure yet – spoke briefly with the office nurse and it available if I need / want to do it. This is my first visit – will talk to him first – maybe not necessary. Did you have to do blood test before each of the IV’s?

        • L September 1, 2019 at 12:27 pm

          NO. Just the high dose C. There is a very small percentage of the population that cannot get this IV. (G6PD is the test) Often you get started with Meyers which is great…lots of mag, Bs and antioxidants. (although $200-250 seems high for that. Also prices vary by country and state and doctor)

        • Fred S September 1, 2019 at 12:35 pm

          Thank you, L. This is helpful – I am on the east Coast in Philly. May be more expensive here I will certainly ask the ND about the tests required for the IV. Let’s see what he says. He is familiar with the Cipro tox issues based on what I have read – hopefully he has a plan.

        • Fred S September 1, 2019 at 2:29 pm

          Sorry to keep asking questions – I noticed some strange bruises on by forearm – something I have never seen before. Is this one of the side effects?

        • L Livingston September 1, 2019 at 2:46 pm

          Could be. I have no idea

          Sent from my iPhone


    • Sheila rogers September 2, 2019 at 10:51 am Reply

      Hi Fred I’ve been reading with interest…..my experience has been hideous as far as fatigue and basically feeling like my body has been poured full of lead…….I have been reading about supplements and so forth here in group for a long time and I took it all in but I also did my own thing, I felt like you – that a good multi vitamin would be a good start but hesitated due to all the remarks here, but after a while I decided I had to try something and I refuse to have anything injected into my body so I went on and got a great all round supplement for my age bracket and I have to tell you I felt a definite difference and anything was better than nothing so I say my multi choice is working – at least it makes my days tolerable…….

      If you think you would like to start with a multi vitamin then do – it’s a cheaper way to see if you feel better than some other options……. if it works great if it doesn’t hey at least you tried and now you can mark that as not working – I say go for it just research the ingredients and make sure you feel comfortable with what is included in the supplement you choose……..

      • Fred S September 2, 2019 at 3:04 pm Reply

        Thanks, Sheila. I want to ensure that I get at least the minimum (if I cannot get it from foods) and go with higher doses in areas where I need it (for example, mag and other). What multi did you decide on. I am 58 – any suggestions for my age? I have read to be careful of synthetic vitamins – not sure how you can tell.

        • Sheila rogers September 2, 2019 at 3:51 pm

          I like vegan products cause animal products bother me – I chose “MegaFood Women Over 55 One Daily Supports Optimal Health and Wellbeing Multivitamin and Mineral Dietary Supplement, Vegetarian 60 Tablets” About the product

          SUPPORTS OPTIMAL HEALTH: Treat yourself to a women’s multivitamin designed to help you feel your best with a nourishing blend of vitamins and minerals tailored to your needs
          TAILORED FOR YOU: Made with the energizing support of B vitamins, 40 mcg of vitamin D to help maintain bone health as well as beta carotene and vitamins C and E to aid immune health
          GENTLE ON THE STOMACH: Take 1 tablet any time of day, even on an empty stomach; Includes methylated folate and B14
          OBSESSED WITH QUALITY: Made without the use of GMOs; Certified dairy free, soy free, herbicide/pesticide free; Certified B Corp; Certified Glyphosate Residue Free; Certified Kosher
          REAL FOOD, REAL AMBITION: We craft premium supplements with real food and enriching nutrients to nourish our world from the roots

          I get mine from Amazon for about 30 bucks for 60 tablets I felt so much better on it that I just now got mine second bottle so I have been using it for 60 days and it is easy on the stomach I have not had any stomach issues with or without food

          I felt that with it being made from plants it would be easy and healthier than most other options

        • Fred S September 2, 2019 at 4:03 pm

          Thanks, Sheila. Will take a look.

        • L September 2, 2019 at 4:41 pm

          FYI this contains folic acid. Anyone not yet tested for the genetic mutation MTHFR best steer clear. Many have this and it prevents you from being able to properly metabolize folic acid. It’s not just that you don’t get the benefit but it actually builds up in your body and becomes toxic. Folate is required in every cell of the body, so it’s very important.

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 3, 2019 at 1:54 am

          Hi Sheila,I can’t find any garantee that this product is made solely form natural sources.

          ” This MegaFood product is made with real food, wholesome nutritional yeast and added nutrients. Each vitamin or mineral is paired with an ideal whole food using our unique process to deliver guaranteed potency and the benefit of health-promoting compounds present in the whole food itself.”

          They don’t garantee there’s no synthetic vitamines,or minerals in a less bio-available form,inside,and on their website is no complete ingredient list available (but part of that webpage gives an error,so,maybe that’s where the ingredient list ought to be?).

          What concerns me is the fact that there’s green tea leaf extract in it,and tea,in any form,is a known risk for relapses in Floxies.So,please,take care,and stop taking this blend at the first sign something is wrong.

          I drank tea,two times,during the second year of being floxed (used to drink tea,every day,whole day,so:liters a day!),and immediatly got back the symptoms that started my Floxie carreer (heart palpitations were the worst).First time it was after drinking a cup of Pu Ehr tea,known to be low in fluoride,so,I guessed it would be safe.Not so! So,please,be carefull!

        • Sheila rogers September 2, 2019 at 3:52 pm

          there is a men’s version by the way sorry for the confusion I forgot to mention that

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 3, 2019 at 1:57 am

          “there is a men’s version by the way sorry for the confusion I forgot to mention that”

          Is that the one with the Viagra? Sorry;just kidding ;-))

        • Sheila rogers September 3, 2019 at 4:14 pm

          too funny!

        • Sheila rogers September 2, 2019 at 5:47 pm

          That’s true L but if someone doesn’t have this issue with genetics this is a good vitamin – I checked the recommended daily dose of folate and it’s 400 and this vitamin only has 200 so it’s well below the daily recommended allowing for a person to eat foods without worry. Thank you for bringing the genetic issue to our attention but again I would recommend this if a person wants a good multi since it has less than other vitamins of folate assuming the person is healthy with no genetic issues with folate

  46. Fred S September 1, 2019 at 8:19 am Reply

    Hi – One more question for those that have tried IV I a seeing a ND this week and suspect he may want to do an IV (for $250 US). What is typically in the IV and did it work? Is $250 a reasonable price? For those in the US – is it typically covered with insurance? Should I be careful of the IV especially if I am taking supplements already? Thanks in advance

    • L September 1, 2019 at 10:51 am Reply

      This all depends on what the IV is, and what the dosage is. (and just between health practitioners prices can vary.) Here is what one of my doctors charges (and he is more than my ND was) for example: Myers-$105; High Dose C 25 grams-$120, 50 grams (what I got) $200, 75 gr-$275; Glutathione 1000 $80, 2000-$90, 4000-$110; Poly MVA 20 ml-$160, 40ml-$190-50 ml-$205. So if you were getting high dose C it would be the same…except you should be getting a blood test first before high dose C. Which IV is he giving you?

  47. Fred S September 1, 2019 at 12:48 pm Reply

    Well – a little over two weeks out and I went to the gym to keep my sanity and maybe help with sleep. Did recumbent bike with elliptical like arm handles for 20 minutes and did the elliptical for 5 minutes. Felt good to get body temp up and generate some endorphin activity. Also did very light weights which felt ok. Still very weak and I don’t trust my joints yet (and will take it very, very easy for at least 2 months maybe longer). Feel my muscles twitching a bit after but ok. I feel like my body has been destroyed – pretty sad.

  48. Fred S September 2, 2019 at 9:16 am Reply

    How does everyone experience joy after having this happen? Very difficult right now to be honest. Feels like my brain is alive but the rest of my body is dead.

    • Henk Noordhuizen September 2, 2019 at 10:11 am Reply

      Fred,theswe kind of things take a while,to come back,and they only do when you’re open for it,to happen.You need to have some patience,and maybe put some work in it (walks in nature,on sunny days,listen to your favorite music,etc.).

      • Fred S September 2, 2019 at 11:42 am Reply

        Thanks, Henk

        • Henk Noordhuizen September 2, 2019 at 11:44 am

          My pleasure;don’t mention it.

  49. Fred S September 2, 2019 at 9:52 am Reply

    The bitter irony I encountered today is paying the organization and doctor who floxed me (and ruined my good health). Not feeling good about it.

    • Henk Noordhuizen September 2, 2019 at 10:07 am Reply

      Same,here;health insurance costs have rissen skyhigh,during the last 2-3 decades,and paying these hurts extra when you’re aware of the fact that you’re paying those docs,who only seem to make things worth as soon as they start “taking care of your health”.

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