Floxie Hope


This site is to give HOPE to those who are suffering from Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome as a result of being poisoned by fluoroquinolone antibiotics – Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox, Floxin, etc.  It contains stories of healing.

Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox and all other fluoroquinolones are dangerous drugs that can have devastating effects that cumulatively I’ll refer to as Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome or Floxing.  Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing includes damage to connective tissue (tendons, ligaments, cartilage, fascia, etc.) throughout the body, damage to the nervous systems (central, peripheral and autonomic), and more. The damage done by fluoroquinolone antibiotics can destroy a person’s quality of life or even kill them. Certainly, there is a time and a place for drugs with dangerous side effects. If you find yourself in a septic shock induced coma, fluoroquinolones may save your life. Unfortunately, these drugs are not being reserved for life or death situations. People are being prescribed them for urinary tract infections, suspected prostate infections, upper respiratory infections, as a prophylactic for travelers’ diarrhea, ear infections, pink eye, etc. Thousands of people have suffered needlessly from the devastating effects of fluoroquinolone antibiotics, when another, safer antibiotic could have, and should have, been used.

The damage done by fluoroquinolones is largely unacknowledged by the medical establishment and an accurate diagnosis, compensation and relief are difficult to come by. There is no known cure for Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Syndrome/Floxing.  However, many people continue to LIVE after being poisoned by fluroquinolones.  They find healing, recovery, perseverance, compassion and hope.  These are their stories.

This site is meant to give hope for healing to those who are adversely effected by fluoroquinolones.  It is no way meant to disregard the pain of those who are chronically suffering from the horrifying effects of Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox or the other fluoroquinolones.  There are people who don’t recover.  Their stories are real and they matter.  There are also people who are able to recover and I share their stories with the hope that they inspire others, or at least give hope that recovery is possible.

Here is a New York Times article about the dangers of fluoroquinolone antibiotics – http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/popular-antibiotics-may-carry-serious-side-effects/?_r=0 – more news stories, research papers and other resources can be found on the “Links and Resources” page.

Here is a Facebook group that is a great resource for those going through Fluoroquinolone Toxicity – https://www.facebook.com/groups/floxies/

Featured post – I’m floxed. Now what?

The Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Solution Ebook has helped many Floxies to recover, including DanielCindy and Ruth.  As a bonus, you will also receive The Floxie Food Guide – a book of diet guidelines to help you through fluoroquinolone toxicity:

flu tox get help you need banner click lisa




25,112 thoughts on “Floxie Hope

  1. Andrea October 15, 2019 at 11:42 am Reply

    Thnaks fopr the info Don. But right now I’m not sure if I’m going to take anything. I don’t want to get things worse. I was using a probiotic, until a couple of months ago : VSL 3. Pretty expensive, 20 euros 10 doses. Not much, but at the begging it was working quite good. I mean, it never cured me, but at least I was able to go to the bathroom a little more regurally. But after a few months of use, it started to bothering me. So I gave it up, and strangley I continued to go to the bathroom with regularity, but I’m still suffering GI issues.
    I’d say, compared to how I was in the first 6 months, when all this started I can say I’m 50% healed. I’m tempted to try this Betaine HCL, but I’m also very scared…

    • Don M October 15, 2019 at 1:32 pm Reply

      Andrea……. Do some research on light therapy. The red at about 650 nm (nanometers) and the far infrared at about 850 nm are the main ones. Cold Laser units use LEDs of this nm. Any cold hand held home laser that is worth anything is very expensive but there are some light bulbs around $40 and panels that have many of the LEDs in them for less than $100 on Amazon and eBay. Here is one example on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-SGROW-Anti-Aging-660nm-850nm-Red-Light-Therapy-45W-LED-Therapy-Light/292907519249?hash=item4432a60d11:g:GegAAOSwa1ZcMxLf
      Light therapy helps many things and has been around for at least 20 years but with the advent of the LED panels with many LEDs now available they are becoming more popular. They are highly touted for healing. Used by many sports teams to hasten recovery from injures.

      I have this panel and use it daily. It does a good job of mitigating pain when ever it shows up.
      Really amazing what infrared LEDs can do when it comes to healing. Look into it.

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 15, 2019 at 2:47 pm Reply

        Hi Don,I think that here,the oldfashoned filament lamps probably outperform leds.There are even plans to start production of leds with an extra,inbuilt filament to produce (near-)infrared light,because,after making more and more powerfull and efficient leds,the focus is now on full spectrum ledlight,infrared and near-infrared light included,and here the filament technique comes in.The old infrared lamps are way better than leds,here;I still got one,and I think those are still in production.

        Actually it’s quite funny;the energy “loss” because the filament lamps generate quite a lot of heat is no real loss;it’s the light frequenties that are now recognised as the most healthy. And in my country (Netherlands) it’s no loss,at all,because most of the year,the times we need to light our houses,and heat them at the same time.Now.they even want to quit the use of gas and other fossil fuels,alltogether,and we have to switch to electricity for heating (and cooking).Absurd;first they force us to switch to unhealthy leds (the blue component in the light is bad for your eyes,and your sleep/biorithm),and now its clear this was a big mistake and we have to switch back to filament light,for health purposes.

        I placed a link,not so long ago,to a PDF file with info on this matter.

  2. Faisal October 15, 2019 at 12:58 pm Reply

    Hi All,

    I need help can i take Amoxicillin is safe for us or not ?

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 15, 2019 at 1:25 pm Reply

      Hi Faisal,Amoxicilling is not a FQ,nor does it contain any Fluorid.It will probably be safe,for as far as any antibiotic is really safe.My experience with Amoxicillin (combined with Metronidazol) is from 12 years before getting floxed,but it was a bad one.can’t tell if the Amoxicillin,or the Metronidazol,was the worst of the two.

      Mabe somebody with experience with Amox.,áfter getting floxed,can give you more info.Good luck.

      • Don M October 15, 2019 at 1:45 pm Reply

        Henk and Fiasal……… Won’t go into the long version of my story but I have taken a lot of Amoxicillin while I was floxed. It all was taken before I come to realize I was floxed. To control a IUT I was taking Cipro and Amoxicillin together. MANY TIMES. I did not seem to have any problems with the Amoxicillin.

        Bottom line……. I found that I had a compound infection (gram negative bacteria e Coli) and the Cipro would work with it but not the other one. The other bacteria was enterococus (a gram positive bacteria) and the Amoxicillin did work with it. Taking them together (against the doctor’s recommendation) finally corrected my problem.

    • Andrea October 15, 2019 at 2:31 pm Reply

      Faisal, amoxicillin SHOULD be one of the most well tolerated antibiotics, but this doesn’t mean that someone in our condition (floxie) can’t have a bad reaction with it. Sorry, but as always, be careful and use it, only if it’s really necessary

    • L October 15, 2019 at 4:30 pm Reply

      Like everything else, what works fine for one person, may adversely effect another. I know it was on Lisa’s list of “likely safe” antibiotics. Yet I recall someone on here saying that they had a reaction. It may also depend on how far out you are from the floxing. Nothing natural you can take?

  3. Andrea October 15, 2019 at 2:35 pm Reply

    Ehy everyone, just another thing…
    lately (last few months) I’ve noticed that my tongue is almost always covered with a thin white coat. Not really a coat actually, but my tongue isn’t really red as it should be. I always brush my teeth and tongue and I try to keep it really clean, but in my opinion this have soemthing to do with my GI issues. Could be mouth candida. But I’m not sure.
    Any experience with Nystatin (or commercial name Mycostatin)?

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 15, 2019 at 2:57 pm Reply

      I have the same white “haze” on my tongue;not really something to worry about.Like the outer skin,the FQ has also changed the inner skin (intestines,stomach lining and of course,the lining of your mouth).I wouldn’t grab for things like Nystatin but first try things like backing soda (used in babies mouth,for this same problem (thrush);safe and efficient),or Colloidal Silver).Antifungul medication is not risk free.

      • Andrea October 15, 2019 at 3:28 pm Reply

        Yeah, I’ve tried some “natural” things : brushng my tongue with baking soda, aloe vera mouth wash, but they only help for an hour or so. Thanks anyway.
        I was reading about using a mouthwash containg at least 0,12 to 0,20 Chlorhexidine, to fight things like thrush. Maybe i’ll give it a try. A mouthwash is probably way better than some antifungal drug.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 16, 2019 at 2:06 am

          Andrea,you think this thrush is connected to your intestinal state,and I agree. So,maybe it’s better to focus on improving your gut health;after improvement,here,the thrush migh disappear without the need for medical care,then.Those problems started right after the Saccaromyce Boulardii,you used,so,you might have a yeast overload.That’s why I guess,Lactospore might be the best possibility to change things back to normal,but the choice is yours,of course.

        • Andrea October 16, 2019 at 10:01 am

          I already used that lactospore from bulk powders. Didn’t do much…

  4. Faisal October 15, 2019 at 6:17 pm Reply

    I have an abscess inside the nose, I took one pill of medicine the first hours I was normal but now there is some high pulse but I can endure

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 16, 2019 at 1:49 am Reply

      If those pills are fluoroquinolones,you’d better be carefull.When the symptomes these pills give you get worse,you might consider to stop the course and go back to your doctor.Maybe he can open the abcess and flush it,and then give you another,mild antibiotic.Good luck;I hope things change for the better.

    • Don M October 16, 2019 at 6:32 am Reply

      What is the correct antibiotic for your particular problem? The best way to find out is to have a culture and sensitivity done. Lab work. There are gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Some antibiotics work best against gram negative and some best against positive. There are “broad scope” antibiotics that are supposed to be effective against both types of bacteria. BUT……. Just because a particular antibiotic is considered a “broad scope” and works in the laboratory testing (in vitro) does not mean that it will work for you. (in vivo) To many doctors (blindly)(they claim it is from “experience”) like to make a wild guess and give out a broad scope antibiotic in hopes it will be the right one and do the job. Theses doctors (blindly because they are not reading the black box warnings) favor Cipro or Leviquin antibiotics which are considered broad scope and effective. These antibiotics are members of the Fluoroquinolone family and can produce some very serious side/after effects. Some immediately and some delayed for months or even years.

      Most of the people on this site have been floxed by a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic and are trying to cope with the problems it is causing them.

      Bottom line……….. Know what antibiotic you are taking. (research it online) Don’t rely on your doctor just handing out a “broad scope” antibiotic. Be sure by getting a culture and sensitivity test that you are taking the right antibiotic for the bacteria you are harboring. Avoid (the doctor’s favorites) Fluoroquinolones if at all possible because they have become known (outside the doctor’s office) as the antibiotic to be used only in life or death cases. The medical establishment has not yet accepted this and begun acting accordingly. Protect your self with knowledge. Don’t let the doctor play Russian Roulette with your future by giving you and iatrogenic illness by prescribing a Fluoroquinolone for your problem. Far to many doctors just don’t understand this.

      Who I am. …. I am 85 now. I have been dealing with infections etc. for about 60 years. UTI infections. I was floxed many years ago but didn’t realize or understand it. No doctor EVER explained anything to me. I found my answers on the Internet.

      • Andrea October 16, 2019 at 10:43 am Reply

        Amen Don!
        Docotr don’t know jack s**t
        I was trying to explain to the last neurologist who visited me last week, about my problems, which all started back in 2015. She said “We ain’t got all day, you can’t pretend to tell me all the things happened to you since 2015”. I started to get angry… During the whole visit, which lasted more or less 10 minutes, she kept a very skeptical. to say the least, attitude, and it was clear she was in a hurry. For what, I don’t know…After that, I’ve asked her if she knew anything about FQs and all the damage they can cause, she replied “Yeah sure” with a very know-all voice, “but these side effects fade away after a little while”. At that point I was furious, I was boiling inside. I kept my composure and I said “do you know about the recent warnings these drugs had in 2018? You know, I was part of the hearing that caused this warnign. I’ve seen a lot of people there, at the hearing, and their sympotoms didn’t fade away, you know?”. She just kept writing in his little piace of paper whatever the hell she was writing without even looking at me. At that point, I just said “You don’t know much about fluoroquinoles, do you?” She then looked at me with a face like “now you starting to piss me off”. I just smiled, sarcastically…
        Anyway she prescribed me two MRI, since the urologist who visited me previosly a month ago insisted abut this. This urologist anyway, even if he didn’t know much about FQs, acted human and professional, he listend to me carefully for a couple of hours, and he’s really trying to help me out, or at least he’s trying to understand all the mess happened to me, unlike this lazy bitch.
        Anyway, after she gave the prescriptions,I just said “Good bye!”, with a loud voice as I moved away from her office.
        These scumbags…

        • joanneb4 October 16, 2019 at 4:55 pm

          What toothpaste do you use?

  5. L October 16, 2019 at 9:39 am Reply

    We were discussing colonoscopies on here not long ago. Dr Mercola did an informative piece on it in today’s email, and again lists one of the problems being dysbiosis or messing with the microbiome. https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2019/10/16/is-colonoscopy-worth-the-risk.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art3HL&utm_campaign=20191016Z1&et_cid=DM368265&et_rid=730229317

  6. L October 16, 2019 at 10:23 am Reply

    This is another interesting email post I got today, regarding signs of mercury toxicity from fillings. Of course many of these could be applied to flq toxicity and other illnesses. Still it is a good reminder that mercury fillings only add to your toxic burden. I had all mine removed within the first year of being floxed.

    If you do decide to, make sure you go to a DDS that is properly trained as there are precautions that need to be taken. The gold standard is someone who is Huggins trained. Since I can only post one link, you can do a search for hugginsappliedhealing (it’s a dot com) and it will have a “find a dentist” link. Mine was really not that much more expensive than the dds I had been seeing. And they use safer, more bio-compatible methods for fillings and crowns, and products (do not use fluoride). And my old dds laughed when I told her how dangerous cipro was…and said she frequently uses it. I told her to STOP! Last I ever saw her.


  7. Fred S October 17, 2019 at 4:39 pm Reply

    Hi Don – You had mentioned you purchased the cold laser unit below and were pretty happy. One question – does it come with instructions on how to treat various injuries or issues? Thanks

    • Don M October 17, 2019 at 8:29 pm Reply

      Fred S…….. The instructions that came with my cold laser were very skimpy. I contacted the seller (probably the importer because the unit is made in Israel, says so in the instructions) and they emailed me a Pdf of instructions that had a lot of information and instructions in it.
      About using it. I have not found anywhere that says there is a limit on how much or where on the body cold laser can be used. THE ONLY WARNING IS TO NOT BE SHINING IT IN YOUR EYES. It will shut off by itself at 5 minutes. I sometimes restart it a couple of times to treat the same spot. I have started using it several times a day where ever it hurts.

      Get a bulb also. Amazon has this one for about $35 https://www.amazon.com/ABI-Light-Therapy-660nm-Infrared/dp/B07SH39YT4/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1HXQU1W06Y290&keywords=therapy+bulb&qid=1571368184&sprefix=Therapy+bulb%2Caps%2C207&sr=8-8

      A bulb will cover a larger area like the shoulder or knee. As I said before bulbs are not focused like the cold laser is so it takes much longer for a light treatment. 30 minutes or more.

      I have the Laser TRX, a bulb and a 12 x 12 light panel that has 225 LEDS in it. Each one has a “best” purpose. I have come to be a strong believer in light therapy. One must realize that light therapy is coaxing the body to mend itself or mitigating pain by causing the body’s own endorphins to become more active. The pain relief only lasts so long and it must be done again. I read that over time that mending can happen where the pain will subside. Well………. I haven’t got there yet!

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 18, 2019 at 12:57 am Reply

        I wonder what is “wrong” with these good old infrared lamps.Those are still in use,and not only research,but also the countless reviews prove they work for muscles and joints.The better ones emit up to 90 % infrared,and,like all filament lamps,they will emit near infrared,as well.These lamps cost only €6-12. Of course you will need an armature.


        My opinion? Filament lamps are far superior in emmiting infrared and near infrared lamps,than leds because they emmit infrared by nature;it’s the way they work.And they are cheap.Of course,if you want selected frequenties,like 650,or 850 nm,go for leds.But they are very expensive.Good,old infrared bulbs;poor men’s choice ;-))

      • Fred S October 18, 2019 at 4:04 am Reply

        Thanks, Don

      • Fred S October 18, 2019 at 4:48 pm Reply

        Don – thank you for all the info. One question on the bulb. Do you have a flexible lamp or stand you use to mount it -or – do you hold the bulb over the area? I want to use the bulb for my sore shoulder and am trying to find the best way to hold the light over the target area.

        • Don M October 19, 2019 at 2:47 pm

          Fred S…… I made my own lamp holding device. I used this https://www.walmart.com/ip/Metal-Swing-Arm-Desk-Lamp-Interchangeable-Base-Or-Clamp-Classic-Architect-Clip-On-Table-Lamp-Multi-Joint-Adjustable-Arm-Black-Finish/324984311 ….. and instead of the included bases I made a homemade floor stand with casters to slip it on to.
          This is an example but it can be bought cheaper by searching eBay.
          There are also some ready made goose neck floor stands for around $30 to $40.
          Do some searching and you will find a variety that you can choose from.
          It is said that the closer to the body the stronger the infrared emissions and the more effective the lamp is. I generally try to have it from 2 inches to ???? The further away the longer the treatment requirement. Very, very little heat can be felt form the LED bulbs.

          Caveat …. Always position it shinning away from your face because you are NOT supposed to shine the light in your eyes.

          Be aware…….. It may take 30 minute sessions more than once a day to mitigate pain.
          As I have said before. The light treatment is coaxing your body to heal and at the same time produce it’s own pain mitigating endorphins.

        • Fred S October 19, 2019 at 2:56 pm

          Thank you, Don. Very Helpful

        • Don M October 20, 2019 at 2:34 pm
        • Fred S October 20, 2019 at 4:16 pm

          Thanks, Don. Pretty amazing stuff going on; I decided to go with the bulb only (ABI) with both 660nm and 850nm and see how it works on my Achilles and knees. May do a setup like yours using flexible lamps later to hit shoulders or elbows. The more I read about red light therapy the more I like it – may even get a panel to hang on my door to get the whole body

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 1:51 am

          Quite interesting,Don.In fact,it’s not a new invention,but a sunbed,fully equiped with 650 and 850 nm leds,with a total energy UPtake of 2400 (Novothor),or 2700 (Novothor XL) watt (you’d have to throw out the washingmachine to use one at home;because of the 15 Amps it uses ;-))

          It’s like your panel,or the led bulb,but quite a bit upscaled,heavy,and with a dual cooling system,necessary because leds do produce quite a bit of heat,and are very sensitive to overheating (self-destruction).The amount of leds in the Novothor will need a very powerfull cooling system,indeed.I can’t find a price for both machines,anywhere,but it will be a very expensive toy!

          Here’s a map which shows all locations where you can get a treatment with one of the Novothors (even one here,in the Netherlands :-))


          The dutch location asks €299 for 10 treatments;which have to be used all within 1 month.No indication about how long each treatment lasts,and their webpage doesn’t work well in Firefox;none of the buttons for ordering one of their treatments works(they offer Cryo and massage,as well).In Opera this website has the same problems.Strange….

  8. Jerri October 17, 2019 at 5:55 pm Reply

    I was floxed over one year ago, I am better now, except for eye muscle inflammation. I no longer need supplements or have issues at all, except for this odd inflammation. I am was advised to try a week worth of ibruprofren to see if it helps the inflammation. Has anyone tried ibruprofren a year or years after being floxed? I am guessing it should be ok since all my other symptoms are no longer present.

    • Don M October 17, 2019 at 8:42 pm Reply

      I would like to think that your assumptions are correct, but once floxed on never knows what will and what won’t. You say that you think that the eye problem is “inflammation”. Ibuprofen is and anti-inflammatory as well as a pain reliever. If it were me I would look for a supplement with ant-inflammatory properties. Turmeric/Curcumin, Ginger and the list goes on. Google for ant-inflammatory supplements. Staying away from OTC pain killers etc. is the wiser thing to do. Just my opinion but I will admit that I am a bit biased against anything concocted in a laboratory.

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 17, 2019 at 11:32 pm Reply

      Jerri,there are less risky inflammation suppressors among the painkillers,than Ibuprofen.And what proof is there that it’s an inflammation? I had eye problems,after being floxed,for soem years;this last year they are minor,but they are still there.One of the problems is,that the muscles of my eyes are tightened to the point it hurts.That might be a nerve problem.Your problem might be totaly different,but are you really shure it is a muscle inflamation,before you start experimenting with one of the more risky painkillers?

      • lisalisa12years October 18, 2019 at 12:19 am Reply

        Chronic dry eye’s out of no where. I’m 13 years out. Actually without a Flouroquonolone for 10 years. The real problems hit when I stopped taking them. Not knowing it was leeching all my vitamins and minerals out of my body. Pulling the calcium out of my teeth. This is the club no one wants to join. I’m so angry to see people still being harmed by these toxins. They’re poisonous to the human body. In my opinion should be completely banned. Nothing to me would be worth going through this again. Life or death situation. I’d put my faith in my own body to fight it off pre Floxie knowing what I know now. I’d have everything needed to build up immunity vitamins and minerals. Allowing my body to work as it was intended. Stay as healthy as possible.. Use tooth strengthening toothpast Flouride free. Jason’s on Amazon if needed. Ruined my teeth. Never told my teeth were soft in my life. Thanks levequin for leeching out the calcium.

      • Jerri October 18, 2019 at 8:12 am Reply

        Yes, it is confirmed by professionals to be periorbital edema (https://www.healthline.com/health/periorbital-edema#causes) – The swelling is too severe for tumeric to touch, I really need prednisone, but I don’t want the side effects or risks.

        • Jerri October 18, 2019 at 8:18 am

          I must add that periorbital edema is now being recognized as a side effect of cipro – according to my Ophthalmologist, who has seen this issue in medical studies. Apparently, torn retinas and neurological issues are not the only eye complications related to this medication.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 18, 2019 at 11:03 am

          Jerri,on that page I can’t find anything about an eye muscle inflammation;it’s all about periorbital edema,which is a fluid buildup.Prednison could even make it worse;one of the adverse reactions to Prednisone is fluid builup.And because it’s not an inflammation,Ibuprofen would not work.

          Of what I find,a diet sometimes works (salt restriction),but because of the many possible causes I think the first thing to do is finding the real cause (by elimination of all known other causes?).Otherwise it will be a blind fight against an unknown enemy.Anti-inflamation medicines and Prednison might help to decrease the symptoms,at least,for a while,but with risks involved.I really don’t know of any safe remedy,here,except for finding out what the cause is,and take that away.

      • Jerri October 21, 2019 at 10:06 am Reply

        So, I tried the Aleve, and it did not help, nor did it hurt me. However, it did cause me to gain a lot of water weight as you warned, Henk. I do not fully understand the difference between edema and inflammation, but I quick online search confirms Ibuprofen causes water retention, yet is used for inflammation.

        • Jerri October 21, 2019 at 10:19 am

          Supposedly, the cause of the periorbital edema is a reaction to Cipro. Extensive blood tests confirm I have no health problems, so I don’t know how to treat Cipro induced periorbital edema.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 10:39 am

          Jerry,where is the info/proof that Cipro causes periorbital edema? Is it because of kidney damage,caused by Cipro?

          Edema and inflammation are two different things. Inflammation is caused by an infection,Edema is caused by a fluid buildup in the tissue,often caused because the kidneys fail to work properly.

        • Jerri October 21, 2019 at 11:12 am

          Henk, the Ophthalmologist said that harsh medicines, sometimes chemotherapy, and even Cipro can cause sudden periorbital swelling. Perhaps it is related to the mitochondria being attacked or the immune system responding. My kidneys are in great shape, they were tested, so it has nothing to do with that. There are countless medical reports online talking about people who have a sudden onset of eye pain and blurred vision caused by eye muscle swelling. They are usually rushed to an ER. The cause is mostly unknown, and the patients are otherwise healthy. It is typically treated successfully with steroids, which I will not try. The onset of this muscle swelling in the eye occurred with 24 hours of taking Ciproflaxin, and the pain and light sensitivity was severe. The pain is caused by the restriction of the eye muscle, and most people can’t look up and down or side to side without discomfort. All symptoms improved over the course of a year, but the puffy eye muscle never left. The swelling may have simply changed the structural shape under my eye or created a stretched pocket under the skin that now encourages inflammation to hangout in there. Either way, I guess I’m out of options. Just another irritating mystery in the symptoms of Fleuroquinolones.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 12:10 pm

          Jerry,I had eye pain (like,somebody stabbing needles in them),blurred,ánd,for over a year,double vision (in attacks,lasting from a few minutes to 1/2 hour,sometimes even longer).This double vision started about a year áfter getting floxed,and lasted over a year before,slowly,fading away.All of these problems,sometimes,return in a less severe way,and take less time to fade away.Sometimes they’re hardly noticable,for weeks,or even longer,but they seem to not totally leave me.Light sensitivity was there from the beginning,right after being floxed.So was the pain,but the double vision started after about a year.

          I’m not sure about a swollen eye muscle;many floxed people had several,and sometimes severe eye problems,but most of the time eye specialists could’n’t find any reason for the symptoms.One other symptom: floaters.First got those after a course,in 2004,with both Metronidazo and Amoxicillin,and it took a long time for them to disappear.and since sept.2016,when I got floxed,they’re back,and more severe.Sometimes they’re so abundant that it’s hard to ignore them,but after having floaters for so long,the brain itself seems to get the hang of ignoring them.

          Every Floxie has other symptoms,including those of the eyes,and experiences them in different ways.Most causes (except Cipro or another FQ,to start all this missery) are unknown,and little can be done to treat them.I’ve never,before read about a swollen eye muscle being a/the cause,but Floxie-land is the land of endless possibilities.

  9. Don M October 18, 2019 at 6:02 am Reply

    Henk……. Everything you say about old fashioned infrared bulbs is correct. BUT They are so damned hot and use so much electricity. An old fashioned bulb draws as much as 250 watts and is to hot to have touching anything where an LED light panel of 225 LEDs draws about 45 watts and is cool to the touch. The light panel can cover a large area where the old fashioned bulb coverage is small. The select frequencies are supposed to be correct for their purpose.

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 18, 2019 at 7:02 am Reply

      Hi,Don, a 150 watt IR bulb can emit as much as 125 watt of pure IR light.Depending on the efficiency of the leds, a led bulb or panel of 45 watts will emit (50-70% efficient Osram champions,with 72%),about 30 watts of IR radiation.So,you’ll need 4 of these 45 watts led bulbs to equel óne of these oldfashioned IR bulbs (Philips).

      And,yes,those are very warm;that’s because IR radiation IS warmth.But at the closest adviced distance of 40 cm the heat is oké (the 100 watt version),and the illuminated area is about 40×40 cm (light/warmth fall-off beyond that area).At 50 cm distance it’s even bigger.I know;I have such a lamp,hanging above my bed :-)) Seldom used,since I have my magnetic pulsers.

      Four of these led bulbs ( without armature;just the bulb) cost about $ 140, the Philips 100 watt infrared bulb costs about € 12,and about € 25,with the armature.As I wrote;poor man’s choice.

  10. Don M October 21, 2019 at 6:15 am Reply

    Fred S, Henk and and anyone else interested in light therapy. I am going to make another post because only one web posting seems to be allowed before the post is canned and not allowed. Here is the post that Henk made about locations of this particular “commercial” light unit. https://www.novothor.com/locations/ I am going to post (another post) the location that is near me because it has a wealth of information that one can read about light therapy.

    It appears that the light therapy has a big affect on the mitochondria and production of ATP in the mitochondria. It appears to indicate that it is also and influence on Oxidative Stress. All these things seem to be somewhat central to people who are floxed. One question that I have is: Dose this light therapy also help the “BAD ” things in the mitochondria that the Fluoroquinolones have managed to disrupt?

    • Don M October 21, 2019 at 6:40 am Reply

      Here is the post of the web site of the light therapy place close to me. https://internalandfamilymedicine.com/services/light-therapy
      On this web site they go into great detail explaining what the light therapy is and what it can help. Go down to the videos and pay particular attention to the one that explains mitochondria. Excellent web site. The cost of treatments??????? Sounds like more than a bit expensive because of the number of treatments suggested. BUT There are effective things that can be purchased and used at home. Like the $40 bulb that are effective for “spot” treatment.

      Light therapy is not just some new fad. It has a history of at least 20 years of successful use. With the introduction of the LED light therapy has expanded to where there are many different light therapy gadgets. By all accounts light therapy is used by many athletic associated organizations for faster (with less pain and no side effects) healing.

      Is it something that would be beneficial to all floxies? I guess that each one of us must decide that. It appears to work for me.

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 7:34 am Reply

        After all this info on the health benefits of Infrared and Near-Infrared light,nudist beaches will become even more favorite than ever before ;-))

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 7:41 am Reply

        About all these possibilities,old and new,to “let the sun shine in”,I think that the more concentrated and powerfull the source is,the more carefull floxies have to be.Remember;the skin,as well,has’got its dose of FQ damage.So;start with a low dose,and increase the dose in small steps.

        From what I know,now,I guess that,with enough carefullness,the sun,and it’s electro-copies,might be beneficial to most,if not all floxies.The sun has taken care of us for ages and ages;it’s our best friend,and without the sun life is not possible!

        • Don M October 21, 2019 at 8:19 am

          Henk….. Your right. Once floxed a person does not seem to respond to things the same way. It is rather disgusting and frustrating that other people do not seem to understand this. There is no way to explain it to them (especially MD doctors) and they most probably don’t care.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 10:42 am

          Yes,Don,because they don’t care,but maybe,many of them are aware that they,themselves,might have caused it,and they just don’t want to know and feel guilty.

  11. Andrea October 21, 2019 at 4:33 pm Reply

    Hi guys, any experience with Daktarin (miconazole) taken as an oral gel, or in tablets? Any adverse effects after taking it?

    • Don M October 21, 2019 at 6:32 pm Reply

      I Google miconazole and get what appears to be an anti-fungal. Right? Your wanting to take it orally so it must mean you think you are dealing with a fungus in your mouth. Right? If that is the case why don’t you look into Colloidal Silver? Colloidal Silver is known to be active against bacteria, viruses and fungus. It is also one of the “natural” things instead of a lab manufactured concoction.

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 11:30 pm Reply

      Andrea,Miconazole is a very unhealthy medicine;I wouldn’t use it,even on my skin.There are natural alternatives,like Turmuric,garlic.and Colloïdal Silver.Here some usefull info.Not all are suited for internal use,but most,do:


    • Henk Noordhuizen October 21, 2019 at 11:33 pm Reply
  12. Don M October 22, 2019 at 8:42 am Reply

    This is mainly directed at “new” floxies. Many common drugs are fluoridated: Prozac, Paxil, Lipitor, Cipro, Diflucan to name a few. https://slweb.org/ftrcfluorinatedpharm.html
    How many people have trusted their doctors and are taking a statin not knowing that it is also a fluoridated drug? How many people have trusted their doctor and are taking antidepressants? How many people have gone through surgery not knowing that the anesthetic contained fluoride?
    Most who have been floxed for some time have done some research and found just how many things are fluoridated.

    • Don M October 22, 2019 at 9:29 am Reply

      L….. I agree. My city adds fluoride to the water. I questioned it and and a city engineer explained to me how good it was and that the kind of fluoride that they bought was “pure”.
      I have installed a fluoride filter in my water system and use nothing but the purified water. It is interesting how around the world fluoridated water has been outlawed but in the US it is still OK. Suppose money has anything to do with it?

      • L October 22, 2019 at 10:01 am Reply

        yeah, $ talks. I buy my water from a water store. (Who’d have thought) I get distilled then add back in the trace elements.

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 22, 2019 at 10:41 am Reply

        “a city engineer explained to me how good it was and that the kind of fluoride that they bought was “pure””

        The purer,the better? Or;does anyone need more proof that Fluoride kills the brain?

        Here,in the Netherlands,our water was fluoridated for a short while,but then the government decided to stop fluoridating.

    • Andrea October 22, 2019 at 9:37 am Reply

      God, I just spent a good amount of money for a inverted osmosis water filter. The seller was absolutely sure about the fact that it removes fluoride and a lot of other thins…should I start to worrie?

      • L October 22, 2019 at 10:03 am Reply

        Reverse osmosis removes most of it. I have read anywhere from 85-92% That is what I initially started buying. Then I went to distilled and added back in my own trace elements. I think you’re fine with that, provided it is a good filter. (and as for the US actually finally removing the fluoride, I think it is still a ways off)

        • Andrea October 22, 2019 at 3:03 pm

          Thanks L

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 22, 2019 at 10:44 am Reply

        Andrea,there’s no water fluoridation in Italy:


        • Andrea October 22, 2019 at 3:02 pm

          Tganks Henk. The official directive here in Italy is that you can safely drink tap water in MOST of our cities. The problem is that the town where I live is one of the worst in that regard. Many times the local newspaper warns that “today and for the next 10 days water it’s no longer potable”. Our water system is completely rotten, so I wanted to buy a water filter…Thank you anyway so much.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 23, 2019 at 12:02 am

          Hi Andrea,still not much improvement,in Italy :-(( I spent two holidays in Torre Anunziata,in the first half of the 80’s,and one thing I remember is that only part of the day there was tapwater;the rest of the day there’s no water comming out of the tap.And we got warnings,over and over,not to drink that water unless it was cooked for at least 10 minutes.So,nothing changed for 40 years,well,not in the town where you live.Probably in the south of Italy?

          The poor half of Italy.When passing through Rome,going to the south,one gets the impressing of entering a totally different country.Something like that is going on here,in the Netherlands;south of the rivers there are the poor,stupid farmers (that’s what you’ll hear from people living north of the rivers :-)) Well.there is a difference;we are not more stupid but more friendly,empatic,warm,helpfull (that’s probably why they call us stupid).That’s why,in the north of NL (and Italy?) people say:”I live here”,while in the south,people say: “I have my home here” ;-))

  13. Andrea October 22, 2019 at 9:39 am Reply

    As far as the miconazole yes it s for my mouth. My tongue actually. I know many of you relies on colloidal silver, but I’m just too scared about agrygria. I know I know, many of you explained a all the story to me. But yet…
    Anyway I’m going to try an homemade mouthwash with baking soda and tea tree oil…let’s see what happens

    • L October 22, 2019 at 10:07 am Reply

      I think that sounds like a good idea (the baking soda and tea tree oil) And I understand your concern re colloidal silver. I was the same way. But I finally came around after having a couple NDs, an integrative MD, and some online docs I trust convince me otherwise. I have since used it orally, topically and even inhaled it in a nebulizer! You just want to make sure you get a good product. One that I consistently see recommended (and that I use) is the Sovereign Silver line.

      • Henk Noordhuizen October 22, 2019 at 11:12 am Reply

        I agree;if the chance of getting Argyria that easy,I would be a Smurf,right now,after all the CS I used,I consumed 1-2 dessertspoonfuls of CS,every day,for 2 1/2 – 3 years,after the first B course I had,in 2004,used it very frequently on my skin (face),untill I started using a UV-B Narrowband lamp to increase my vit. D uptake,and,like L. I own a nebulizer,and used it with CS on a regular baseto get rid of a nasty cough I had for years (from smoking?),untill the coughing had gone.

        There are only a handfull of Smurfs,and only a few are from CS.Most are blue/gray because of working in silver mines,or silver industry.And most photographs are manipulated to make the colour look more extreem.Fear mongering is one of the Farmafia tactics;even here I’ve seen a toxicologist on TV,telling how dangerous and ineffective it is.Went to the web and found a quite different story (in fact;a lot of research),and CS is used quite a lot in hospitals,for burning wounds,and wound inflammation like tose,diabetics often have.

        Always use pure CS,not CS salts,or CS proteins.Best way to make sure that your product is 100% pure? Make the destilled water,and the CS yourself,like many people do (me to :-))

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 22, 2019 at 10:51 am Reply

      Andrea,Tea Trea oil is oké to use on your skin,but not in your mouth,and you should certainly NOT swallow it.Baking Soda is oké,but the best choice is,probably,Kurkuma;effective and healthy.And Kurkuma,Ginger,milk and a bit of honey make a very healthy and tasty drink,called Golden Milk,Drinking this may help to kill the fungus in your intestines,as well;the fungus will probably not be limited to your tongue,I guess.

      • L October 22, 2019 at 11:02 am Reply

        I agree about swallowing but there are plenty of sites that show how to use tea tree oil as a mouth wash or use in the mouth (diluted) In fact, it is supposed to help with preventing gum disease. I have a tooth paste with it.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 22, 2019 at 11:19 am

          Then you’d first have to test if you’re not allergic to Tea Tree oil,on the skin of your arm,or else.Then do the same test with a tiny drop,dilluted in another oil,and then hope for the best. I’ve used it,myself,several times,for gum problems and a bacterial infection under a tooth.Tastes horrible,makes your throat unhappy,and in the end,it didnt work because it couldn’t reach the bacteria under the tooth.

        • L October 22, 2019 at 11:31 am

          good idea

      • Andrea October 22, 2019 at 3:14 pm Reply

        I’ve used tea tree oil in the past. I don’t have any problem with it. As for any essential oil you should never use it pure but always diluited. A friend of mine add a couple of TTO in his toothpaste, just to kick the antibacterial properties up. I think that adding some drops in a glass with distilled/purified water and some baking soda as mouthwssh won’t hurt me anyway.
        PS the same friend told me he got rid of candida on his genital parts by spraying some colloidal silver on it 3 to 4 times a day for about 4 5 days. I’m not denying the properties it should have (even my mother, a doctor, told me that in ancient times silver was used, with quite a bit of success for the healing of some nasty skin condition in children), but still, even if there’s 1 chance in a million of turning grey/blue for the rest of my life, that, scares the crap out of me. Guys, I’m not against you and your knowlednge about CS, but try to understand my concern:-)

        • L October 22, 2019 at 3:53 pm

          I totally get it. You have to do what feels right for you.

        • Henk Noordhuizen October 23, 2019 at 12:49 am

          Andrea,having used TTO in the past is no garantee that it will not cause problems,now,since you are floxed.better follow the Safety First rule.

          There is no known person with Argyria,caused by properly made CS.Those with Argyria used badly made CS.The Blue man made it from mineral-rich tapwater,and added salt to speed up the process.And he drank it by the gallon.Rosemary Jacob used eye- and nosedrops (silversalts),she got prescribed by her doc.Many people got blue from these PATENTED silversalt drops and silver protein paste’s,that days.Now,it’s known that these silver salt and protein molecules are too big to be removed by the body,and they will accumulate,particularly under the skin.The sun does turn them into a blue/grey colour.

          The electrolytic method,developped by Bob Beck,makes very small particles,and by using high quality destilled water and using a low voltage/limited Amp. power source those particles are too small to cause Argyria,unless you drink gallons of it,and overload your kidneys.Drinking too much,too long,might even have a risk for nerve damage.But every sensible person knows that you only need a few cl/day,for it to do it’s work.

          Oh;the toxocologist,I saw on dutch television,also warned that it makes male seemen slow.Not only is this a temperary effect,and,when really ill,I couldn’t mind less about the speed of my seemens,but he also forgot to mention that this was not shown in humans,but in rats (like himself).His talk filled most of the program and,even after reviewing it a few times,I never heard him telling ONE truth! Dutch television at it’s best! Reading:Neil Postman – Amusing Ourselves to Death.Or listen to the Roger Waters album,based on this book;Amused to death.

          P.S.Everybody,including Waters,seems to have forgotten that the book was there,first (1985),and years before Waters wrote the first song for his album; “Perfect Sense.” (1987).The honour for this intense wake-up call goes to Neil Postman!

    • Don M October 22, 2019 at 11:00 am Reply

      Andrea…. Argyria fears are BS!!!! Argyria was a problem in the old days because then the only way to get silver into the body was by grinding it up and mixing it with water. This left the particles way to large for the body to handle much of it and it would then accumulate under the skin and “tarnish” causing a blue looking skin. Now (nanoparticle) Colloidal Silver can be made by placing 2 silver wires in a container of distilled water and passing a low voltage current between them. (9 volt batteries, 3 in series) This causes the silver to migrate from one electrode into a suspension in the water. By doing it slowly with the low voltage it makes the particles very small and effective.
      I have made my own since I began using it.

      I have used Colloidal Silver for 8 years. Plenty of it and I am sure not blue or have any signs of Argyria. I will drink an ounce at a time and may do it several times in a day when needed. One must drink a pint of today’s Colloidal Sliver solution daily for some time to show any signs of Argyria. The normal dose is a couple of table spoons full. If you take it into your mouth and slosh it around then spit it out (do this several times a day) it most likely will stop your problems.
      Go here and read what it has to offer https://thesilveredge.com/

  14. […] Floxie Hope | A site to give hope for healing to those adversely affected by fluoroquinolone antibio… […]

    • Don M October 26, 2019 at 7:45 am Reply

      Excellent article. It is really mind boggling to see so many people and organizations trying to defend “fluorides”. Trying to defend them as something good rather than what the really are? POISON! Fluoride in any form is a poison. Be aware of all the sources where you are exposed to fluorides. Only “YOU” can protect yourself from the effects of fluorides. The medical and industrial organizations are not.
      Every floxie should read this article and then post it as many places as possible.

      • Andrea October 26, 2019 at 9:49 am Reply

        I’m sure I’ve touched this topic before, a long time ago, but anyway…I remember my parents giving me, when I was a child, some fluoride supplement and even at school they gave us the same supplement, because it was supposed to strenghten your teeth. I just remember the disgusting taste of those tablets. Is it possible that I was was exposed to a mild fluoride poisoning at that early age? Is it a possibility that I was floxed because I was already exposed to fluoride?
        From Wikipedia :

        ” Medical fluoride supplements in the form of tablets, lozenges, or liquids (including fluoride-vitamin preparations) are used primarily for children in areas without fluoridated drinking water. The evidence supporting the effectiveness of this treatment for primary teeth is weak. The supplements prevent cavities in permanent teeth. A significant side effect is mild to moderate dental fluorosis.[10] A Cochrane review also found no evidence that daily fluoride supplementation in pregnant women was effective in preventing tooth decay or causing fluorosis in their children.[53] “.

        See even if we don’t have fluorinated water in Italy, they still find a way to poison us with stupid supplementation propaganda. In my opinion the only thing that protects you from tooth decay is a good diet poor in sugar. good oral hygine, and vitamin d.

        • Don M October 27, 2019 at 6:24 am

          Andrea…….. You were floxed because you took a Fluoroquinolone. There are many reasons for why the severity of floxing is so varied. As you say…… The use of fluoride comes at us from all directions. Now that we know one must be aware and eliminate as many places as possible. Only “we” are ultimately responsible for our health. The system has found that by creating iatrogenic illnesses they can increase their profits by more treatment.

  15. Mike Wallbridge October 27, 2019 at 1:38 am Reply

    I was floxed just over a year ago and have reached a point where I have few symptoms, just occasional tendon or muscle pain mainly in the legs. Is there a point where large doses of magnesium should be tailed off? I’ve read that large doses can cause heart palpitations which I’ve been experiencing increasingly of late. I’ve also been using diltiazem hydrochloride cream for a fissure and the palpitations worsened to the point where I had to stop using it. But I don’t know whether to decrease my high magnesium intake.

    • L October 27, 2019 at 8:43 am Reply

      Wow! You are very lucky. That’s great. Personally, I would cut down but not out. Magnesium is vital for pretty much nearly every bodily function. I am almost 5 years out and now stay about 400 mg in supplements (although I actually get more from diet) If your diet is high in magnesium rich foods you may want to try cutting down to 200 in supplements or even no supplement at all.

  16. Henk Noordhuizen October 27, 2019 at 4:01 am Reply

    Mike,the problem with magnesium is,that a too high AND a too loo magnesium level cause,more or less,the same symptoms.To be shure,you’ll nee an RBC test (intercellular magnesium test).The new problems seem to be caused by the diltiazem hydrochloride cream; it’s a known adverse reaction to that substance.

    • Don M October 27, 2019 at 6:09 am Reply

      I second Henk’s advice of an RBC magnesium test. The standard cheap magnesium blood test is a sampling of the magnesium level in the blood. The blood contains only 1% of the magnesium in the body so it is kind of like a blood pressure check. It is a snap shot of the magnesium circulating in the blood at that particular time. Little to do with the total magnesium level in the body. Dr. Carolyn Dean says that if the mag level in the blood drops the mag is drawn from the bones and muscles so testing that 1% is rather moot. There are several magnesium tests available but the best available test is the RBC because it checks the magnesium level in the red blood cells. Dr. Dean does not agree with the posted parameters for the RBC test. Her recommendation is to try to get it as close to 6.5 as possible. About magnesium………… If you are taking mag pills the indication of the high level of mag is loose stool and diarrhea. Unless one has kidney problems and can not excrete the excess mag it is pretty hard to have too much because you just excrete the excess through your urine. Or back off because you have diarrhea. The previous statement is from Dr. Dean. If you want to learn about mag get her book “The Magnesium Miracle” (Amazon) or go to her website and read what she has to say. She has spent her life studying magnesium and is considered and “expert” on the subject.

  17. mikethebook October 29, 2019 at 6:04 am Reply

    Thanks guys. I’ll check into the RBC test in the UK but I think it will be expensive. I will experiment with backing off the magnesium (750mg per day glycinate and l-threonate) as you suggest but I don’t know whether I’m getting too much. I have a high fibre diet for my fissure and my stools are loose but without being diarrhea. Trouble is that, at times, i have slight pain from my achilles tendon and other tendon/ligament/cartilage areas so I slap on plenty of magnesium oil. I don’t want to risk a tear.

    I saw the doctor this morning and he wants to do some tests to find out the cause of the palpitations even when I’m not using the diltiazem. I dread having to have a stent installed and the need afterwards to take blood-thinners and aspirin long-term. That can’t be good for someone having been floxed.

    • Henk Noordhuizen October 29, 2019 at 6:57 am Reply

      Mike,a Magnesium Intracellulair RBC is not very expensive;in The Netherlands it costs € 39. The actual test is done by a german lab with an excellent reputation: Medische Laboratoria Dr. Stein.

      • Don M October 29, 2019 at 10:55 am Reply

        Here in the US the RBC magnesium test is $49 through RequsetAtest online without a doctor’s order. Just go to the web site https://requestatest.com/ and fill out the requested information. Select a lab from their available ones that you want to go to. Pay their fee. The paper work will be sent to the lab and you will be notified by email. Get the blood drawn for the test. The labs have web sites where you can see and print out your results. I have done it and it works.

    • Don M October 29, 2019 at 11:05 am Reply

      Mike……… Re magnesium. Read what Dr. Carolyn Dean has to say about it. https://drcarolyndean.com/
      I won’t make a lengthy dissertation about it. Just read all she has to say about it.
      Pay particular attention to the fact that actually from 4% to 20% of the magnesium you consume is utilized by the body. The rest is excreted and you all know how. So it is rather hard to overdose on magnesium unless you have kidney problems.

  18. mikethebook October 30, 2019 at 3:57 am Reply

    Thanks for your replies. I will check out RBC testing labs here in the UK and read what Dr Carolyn Dean has to say. That’s all very helpful.

  19. Donald M Mowers October 30, 2019 at 8:46 am Reply

    Andrea…….. A little bit about Colloidal Silver. https://manage.kmail-lists.com/subscriptions/web-view?a=cKfkpk&c=Jz9736&r=r8B9VCP&m=PycaVM&k=952d27d228f8461cce5aad029f98f86b
    Watch the video. Yes, in the end it is an advertisement trying to sell “pico made” Colloidal Silver.

    The video shows some of what makes Argyria nearly impossible today. Unless one tries to make it themselves using salts like Henk explained. I don’t like the idea of anyone here trying to bad mouth Colloidal Silver. Colloidal Silver is good and it definitely has a purpose. There are those “scare mongers” that try to convince people otherwise. They are wrong. Used correctly Colloidal Silver is a whoooooool lot safer than today’s antibiotics.

    • Andrea October 31, 2019 at 7:54 am Reply

      Thanks Donald. Anyway, I don’t bad mouth anything. I’m just very careful and also a little suspicious on anything today. Plus I was reading that if you take it for a long time, it could accumulate in your liver and kydneys. So I’m very concerned about it, but if you fnd it works for you, that’s good

  20. Sheila rogers October 30, 2019 at 9:02 am Reply

    Just wanted to let you guys know I have been reading the comments staying quiet though…..I read with disdain how doctors are acting horrible about not believing in this problem and I wondered after reading so many comments what my doctors would say the heads up with the comments at least prepared me for snarky remarks from the doctors…..the one doctor I saw two days ago was my eye doctor and lo and behold he knew about the side effects of cipro and was able to actually warn me about the torn tendons. We discussed why I had been on cipro for as long as I was and we discussed the eye effects and he took extra time with me to do the specific exams for retina detachment and looked inside my eyes etc. for any damage – news right now – so far so good…..it really amazes me how many doctors will NOT accept science and drug effects and then you have this handful of doctors who are on board and concerned thank god my eye doctor is concerned and on the way out the door he said “now watch out for those torn tendons we don’t need that with you on crutches” – it will be interesting to see if the other doctors I have will be this aware. Just wanted you guys to know there are some docs that take this seriously I hope we all have them and not the others

    • L October 30, 2019 at 10:18 am Reply

      That’s good to hear…although even the ones who are familiar with it are ONLY familiar with tendon damage and could not imagine that all these other effects, mental and physical, are connected. But so glad you found someone who had some awareness. So important. (I had lots of eye damage and I have seen a number of ophthalmologists—specialists and their understaning of it is appalling. IN fact, most all of the use cipro eye drops routinely

    • Andrea October 31, 2019 at 2:04 pm Reply

      Sheila, except the handful of doctors around the world, who are taking this FQ madness serously, the majority of them (I’d say 9 out of 10, maybe more), don’t know jack s**t.
      Some of them like L pointed out, know about tendon damage, in particular achilles tendon (like it was the only tendon Cipro can destroy) because it was reported on the label, but anyway they’re, most of the time, useless.
      I’ll give my latest example : I’m seeing a neurologsit right now, for my bladder problems, it didn’t know much about cipro or FQ damage. He was only aware of tendond damage and heart problems, but he doubt it all the things I was telling him. After I explained to him that there’re warnings and restrictions now, even here in Europe, and I even partecipated to an official hearing in London, he started to listening to me a little more carefully, but still he wasn’t very convinced. Anyway i’m just “using” him, because I want to get as many exams as possible (MRI scans, electromyography etc) to see if there’s some visible damage. Anyway, most of the time they’re just useless, and they aren’t afraid to prescribe other pills to you, just to “save the day”.

      • Sheila rogers October 31, 2019 at 8:01 pm Reply

        I understand that most doctors are unaware that’s why I was posting I was pleased that this eye surgeon was aware and wanted to let those here in group that feel they may never find anyone who believes it, that there was hope. I have spent most of my life in the hospital and fully understand the shortcomings of all doctors. This is an eye surgeon and the fact that we sat for a few minutes and discussed the after effects that I have been dealing with to me was a big ray of hope for our future, that’s all I was posting for.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 1, 2019 at 1:42 am

          Hi Sheila,I’m glad to hear that there ARE real doctors.Most of them are young,just started practicing,and not fully aware of the pressure,the Farmafia and the rest of the industry is going to put on them to change into an evil pill-pusher.Some will remain integer,many of them will not.It’s a shame that so many people on places with a high responsibility are so easily corrupted.Makes me feel disappointed in humanity.

        • Andrea November 1, 2019 at 9:51 am

          Oh yeah, I completely agree with you. When you finally find someone who really do his job correctly, say this eye surgeon, it is a pleasent feeling. In all this odissey, that started almost 3 years ago, I come across maybe 2 doctors like that. I wish you the best. I wasn’t arguing with you. 🙂

        • Andrea November 1, 2019 at 9:56 am

          Oh yeah Sheila, don’t get me wrong, I agree with you 100%. When you finally find someone who really do his job correctly, and at least take the time to listen to you, is a pleasent feeling. In my journey, which started almost 3 years ago, I came across maybe 2-3 doctors like that, and I spoke to a least a dozen of them. I’m sure ther’re still good doctors around, Iit’s just there’re very few left. Anyway I wasn’t arguing with you at all, I wish you the best. 🙂

        • Sheila rogers November 3, 2019 at 9:12 am

          Here’s my story and update I have not been this detailed but thought I would share:

          I’ve been suffering since 2012, I kept asking my doctor why it was that one night I was normal one night when I went to bed and woke up the next morning and it was like a switch had been turned off, literally my arms felt like they weighed 500 pounds each and my eyes couldn’t stay open and I was SOOOOO tired I just wanted to stay in bed the rest of my LIFE. It’s been a hard struggle for me to get out of bed for years, every time I would ask my doctor what was wrong she seemed to not take it seriously I thought I was just getting older and losing all my gumption; yet I was someone who worked out at the gym everyday for 3-4 hours, ran errands till nightfall, went here there and everywhere had energy but not an overabundance of it just enough to do it all and all of this while being a full leg amputee who cannot wear a prosthetic I use crutches yet I didn’t feel like my body was weighted down with lead. One time she suggested I might have fibromyalgia which my mom has and my mom and I were talking the other day about her situation and she had the same instant reaction after a surgery in 1984 she said she has never been the same since that surgery. My symptoms didn’t start till after being dosed with Cipro for over 3 years for a UTI, about every 3 weeks I was on a run of Cipro until I finally found D- Mannose which stopped the cycle. Because of my leg situation that resulted in an amputation I always had specialists for doctors since I was 18 months old my “leg” doctor was President Eisenhower’s cardiologist he moved down to my area and took me on as patient to “cure” so he could be even more well known, I had surgeries to strip arteries and veins in my leg every 3-6 months starting at age 18 months until I reached 15 years old so I became family to him and his wife who was his anesthesiologist, he died from injuries sustained in a plane crash when I was in my early 20’s leaving me without anyone to care for me; I never had a general doctor cause they had no clue what my rare disorder was in the leg, it was vascular but no one was familiar with it. That’s how I ended up with an eye surgeon to do all my eye requirements, I got this eye surgeon back in the 80’s so he’s been my doctor for decades and just in the last 5 years got a dental surgeon to do my dental – I skip the middle man and go straight to the person that they would send me to if they couldn’t handle the situation.

          I struggle with tons of floaters in my eyes and as an artist it has gotten to where I don’t paint anymore cause I will be concentrating on a section and I would have to stop and literally shake my head to get the fluid in my eye to move the floaters so I could see to finish the section I was on, I can’t paint that way it’s about continual brush movement into the next color I can’t just stop every 5 seconds and shake my head which is what it has become; I suffer with very painful joints and I feel like my left shoulder is permanently damaged; I had no energy NONE, no motivation due to the pain and fatigue, skin bumps that leave me looking like I had a vicious fight with a rose bush or a mad cat I have to wear long sleeves all the time so people don’t stare and comment and I feel like I have aged overnight. And the worst thing about it all is the depersonalization – I have asked sooooo many times here on this group if anyone else has been suffering with this part of the toxicity and no one responds this is horrible to deal with I would love to hear about how others are handling the depersonalization. Please if you have this symptom share with me it’s driving me nuts to not know what to do.

          the good news is that for the past week I have had energy I have not felt in years – any increase in energy is welcomed it’s more than I have had in almost 10 years, nowhere near what I used to have but I won’t complain I am using it to my advantage; I don’t dread getting up in the morning I drag but I don’t dread it; I am getting things done in the house even my husband commented that he was noticing I was moving more and doing things but we are both worried it’s a false sense of security and that it won’t last and the biggest thing I may go back to attempting to paint I have a commission to paint a couple of dog portraits and I don’t have the floaters right now!!! yayayay, and the eye doctor didn’t make a note of a massive amount of floaters this time he just said he saw some, but I can see without shaking my head every few seconds and I can read, all improvements. Talking with the eye surgeon was a relief he seemed to be concerned and knew about a bunch of the symptoms and told me to have them pursued. I hope this improvement continues but I will not be surprised if it’s short lived. I have started to eat more vegan to clean up my diet in hopes that would help and it seems to be if nothing else making feel me like I’m being proactive. I have had nothing but good things from my multi vitamin that we all talked about in the last 60 days, and I will be slowly adding a couple of other supplements to help but right now I am adding turmeric to my food and curry’s, I’ve subscribed to Hamma where I get microgreens drop shipped every month or so and I can just place the burlap seeded fabric in water and leave it be then clip it in 7 days for salads etc. and that is wonderful, I quit doing a lot of cooking due to not having the energy to stand in the kitchen anymore so something like this where I just drop it in a water tray, do nothing, harvest in 7 days that’s right up my alley. I have found Beyond Burger is a perfect substitute for any ground beef product and has led me to cook a bit more now that I have more energy and getting the red meat out will help with any heart disease in the future. It’s amazing what a little bit of energy boost can accomplish – I am more involved in my own life.

          If someone could address the depersonalization I would appreciate that and could someone tell me what a torn tendon feels like? I have such a high tolerance for pain with this leg issue – years ago I literally didn’t know I had broken ALL but one of my ribs until I had a scan to see why my side hurt and the doctor said “did you know all but one of your ribs is broken” no I didn’t so a torn tendon – fill me in please.

          Thank you for reading and hopefully someone else has input on this depersonalization.

      • Henk Noordhuizen November 1, 2019 at 1:27 am Reply

        Andrea,I do agree,but not for 100%.I am shure,many “docs” DO know about the dangers of FQ’s,but use to ignore them,and when things go wrong,to deny them to their patients.It’s just like my “doc”screemed out when seh discoverde that she couldn’t prescribe her favorite ,Cipro,because of an other “medicine” I already used:”When things go on like this (the warnings about bad combinations of medicines,or “newly discovered” adverse reactions),I might as well stop” This shows that,for her,being a doctoc was all about prescribing (= selling) “medicines.

        There are hundred’s,if not thousands of fifferent substances,called medicines,but most doc’s only use a short list of “favorites”,unless the situation forces them to delve into their database for specia occasions.Some docs are more flexible,but my doc (the female one;don’t know for shure about her male collegea) likes to stick on here shortlist.Might be her short memory;when I came back she’d probably forgot that she told me she was advised/ordered (? not shure which of both) NOT to prescribe it with my other medicine,and got really mad at me when I told her I stopped using the Cipro after 4 pills,because of the severe adverse reactions.Her DOMINA atitude is really annoying,and far from professional;using medicines is,after all,(still) a free choice.

        • Andrea November 1, 2019 at 10:11 am

          Henk whatever it is : greed, ignorance, negligence, to us patients is the same, they damage us with those damn pills. There’re defently many of them who prescribe very proudly their medicines because they sold themselves to the pharmaceutical companies, but the majority, that’s just my opinion of course, really don’t know s**t. And that’s probably even scarier, having a bunch of incompetent jerks, telling you what to do with your health. And I’m saying this (their ignorance about the dangers of their precious pills), because otherwise, you couldn’t expalin why they too, use those same medicines on them,. My father is an example. He’s a surgeon, now retired ( and I can guarantee you that it was an honest hardworking guy, never took a cent from a patient) but he used cipro on himself a few times in his lifetime, but there’re plenty of them that did the same thing. Now that I think of it, it would be interesting to understand why certain people are affected so badly by these drugs and others seem to do just fine…

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 2:37 am

          Hi Andrea,why some people take FQ’s several times without damage,while others have their lives changed dramatically after just one pill is not yet fully understood.Don M. took FQ’s many times without problems,and then,all of a sudden,was floxed,although he thinks that there might have been signs before.

          There are a few hypotheses of possible causes (swallowing these pills is,of course,the first one ;-)) A magnesium defficiency,and/or a Selenium defficiency are mentioned as possible causes,and a defficiency in certain (liver?) enzymes could be a factor.Untill now nobody (officially) knows,and I think not much research is done (repositioning Cipro is more lucrative :-((

  21. L October 30, 2019 at 9:40 am Reply

    I wanted to post this article from Mercola (I know you’ve read it Henk 🙂 ) because some of us experience Interstitial Cystitis post floxing. What this article does NOT offer as a natural approach, that helped me, were both accupuncture, traditional chinese medicine and aloe vera capsules. https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2019/10/30/bladder-pill-increases-risk-of-retinal-damage.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art2ReadMore&utm_campaign=20191030Z1&et_cid=DM378485&et_rid=739723104

  22. mikethebook October 31, 2019 at 1:35 am Reply

    I’ve just read Sheila Rogers post with alarm and interest. In what ways can cipro affect the eyes and eyesight? I think my prescription changed quite radically after I was floxed though it may be imagination and just age.

    • Andrea October 31, 2019 at 7:09 am Reply

      It could probably affect it by damaging optic nerves. But the reason can be way more complicated

    • L October 31, 2019 at 9:13 am Reply

      There are a number of ways. First, cipro can eat through the vitreous, just like any other connective tissue in the body. The first day after cipro I had suddenly had so many floaters I was afraid I might have retinal detachment and rushed to the eye doctor. (That is the first thing to be aware of.) I didn’t, but I kept getting more and more floaters as it gobbled through the vitreous, to the point where it was like trying to look through gauze or cheesecloth (or as a fellow floxie friend put it…like trying to look through egg drop soup.) I also got those little black speck floaters in addition to the familiar whispy ones. I got so many that if I looked at a blank wall or floor, it would appear to be covered with hundreds of dots.

      Then as Andrea pointed out, because cipro can impact nerve function anywhere on the body, it can also affect the optic nerve which can present in different ways like say double vision. Another side effect I had which I assume was nerve damage and VERY disconcerting, was I saw two separate images. This was not double vision, but I actually saw two different images… Our brain automatically takes what each eye sees and milds them into one cohesive image only mine was not doing that.

      I also lost acuity. It went from 20/20 in one and and 20/25 in the other to around 20/60 in both eyes. It was like that for most of the first year. At my last eye exam I had 20/30 and 20/40 so some apparently self-corrected.

      I am became extremely light sensitive. At first it actually hurt to go outside, like I was a mole person. I wore sunglasses, a hat and I still had to hold something directly in front of my face, like a large envelope. That has gotten better, but I am still light sensitive and it is very difficult to be anywhere where there is fluorescent lighting. I also have been diagnosed with macular degeneration post cipro.

      The floaters eventually got to the point where now I just have a couple, and I am not sure if it was just time or was helped by taking CanC eye drops twice a day, every day for two years.

      • Henk Noordhuizen November 1, 2019 at 1:07 am Reply

        L.,what is the difference between double vision and seeing two different images? When your eyes both see produce same image but your brains aren’t able to blend them to one,or when both eyes do not focus on exactly the same point,the effect will,in the end,be that you see two images that do not blend to one image.That’s,how I experienced it,and one in a while still experience it.

        The pain in my eyes (like somebody sticking needles in them),the extreem light sensitivity;both are mostly gone.Only the floaters are still there.Most of them are transparent,only once in a while there’s a black one (tiny bit of blood),which is the most annoying kind.My ability to focus,and have a sharp image,differs from day to day,and from eye to eye,At their best I can still focus close to about 30 cm,but about half of the time I need a bigger distance to fucus,and sometimes,especially when there’s low light,I can’t read without glasses,at all.

        My eyes where great,untill my first ever antibiotica course,in 2004.Almost immediatly after that course I got big floaters (the black ones) in my left eye,and it took a long time before they disappeared to a level that my brain could ignore what was left of them,most of the time.Since that time I also have light flashes,(really annoying in the dark,why trying to fall asleep,less visible during daytime,and little black spots (only visible during daytime)that only last for a fraction of a second.Very disturbing;it’s like an insect,teasing you from time to time.The light flashes are triggered by every little eye movement I make.A bit of improvement since 2004,but they’re still there.

        Well,all in all,my eye condition is way better,now,than after both the first course,first one with Amoxicillin and Metronidazole (2004),and the second one,with Cipro (2016).But,together with all the other “left-over’s” from both courses,especially from the Cipro,there’s enough left to complain about.Antibiotics are BAD STUFF !! And dealing with all the damage when you didn’t need them in the first place,or when they didn’t help a bit and were utterly useless,is a hard reminder of the dangers of “modern,science based medicine”.

        • L November 1, 2019 at 9:28 am

          I am not sure if you were asking me or trying to further explain, but I will try to give another example. Say you are outside looking at a rabbit in front of a bush. With double vision you would see two rabbits and two bushes. It would be the exact same image, doubled. With what I had (not sure what to call it) I would see part of the rabbit and part of the bush out of one eye, and a different part of the rabbit and different part of the bush out of the other eye because my brain was not melding them together as it is supposed to do automatically. We are not aware of it because our body does it without us needing to think about it.

  23. mikethebook November 1, 2019 at 2:08 am Reply

    Wow! That’s scary stuff. I haven’t had to deal with floaters . . . yet. But at one point, my eye moved outside of its normal range of movement and was sore afterwards. I presume the connective tissue holding the eyeball in place was affected. I also used to play Sudoko which would involve a lot of rapid eye movements as I looked for patterns. But I don’t do that now because it used to (and possibly still would) make my whole eyeball feel sore and sort of swollen. Those symptoms plus the change in my prescription are what I’ve noticed most. I haven’t seen an optician since I was floxed but I need to. Trouble is I’ve been dealing with other major health issues in my life – cancer, heart issues – now that symptoms have settled down I should do that.

    • L November 1, 2019 at 9:40 am Reply

      So sorry you are having to deal with other health issues on top of this.

      I used to love to do those “puzzles” where you have to find hidden objects, or where you compare two pictures to see which changes they made to the second. I couldn’t do either of those for a couple years. I also was used to reading before bed. Couldn’t do that for quite some time either. Now, at almost 5 years out I am able to read again at night, but not as much— my eyes are just not the same.

      • mikethebook November 3, 2019 at 2:04 am Reply

        I’m the same, L. I daren’t try that type of puzzle anymore. Too much eye movement though thankfully I can still read in bed. But my eyes are just not the same and weirdly I can read my computer screen with my distance glasses. I need to get a checkup and new glasses.

  24. Andrea November 1, 2019 at 10:19 am Reply

    Guys, last night I was surfing the internet and I end up watching chiropratict videos, you know those “crack” addicts videos 🙂 , anyway, after a little while, I was watching this particular video, where a chiropractitian was healing a girl who was suffering, with a lot of other things, with bladder issues. Do you think it’s possible to cure or at least ease those problems with chiro. I mean the bladder is controled by the nervous system, what if my bladder problems where connected, say for example, to some disc problem in the lombar region. What do you think? I thinking about that expecially because of the way my bladder troubles beginned : after a surgery.

    • L November 1, 2019 at 11:12 am Reply

      I think it really depends on what is causing the issues, but I wouldn’t rule it out. I mentioned earlier that when I had what I believe was interstitial cystitis from the cipro that I got relief through acupuncture. that relief was temporary, but my acupuncturist also practiced traditional Chinese medicine and that gave long term relief

      • Andrea November 1, 2019 at 12:05 pm Reply

        Well, there’re a couple of American chiropratictioners where I live, formed in the US (here in Italy C. isn’t recognized yet, so you can practice but you can’t get a degree here nor there’s a school that would give you that degree), I think I’m going to talk with one of them and see what he tells me…

        • L November 1, 2019 at 12:17 pm

          sounds like a good idea

        • Don M November 1, 2019 at 12:39 pm

          May I rain on the issue? Just remember all doctors are not the same but all are after your money. There are good Chiropractors and there are the ones just after your money and willing to treat you as often as you will permit. Chiropractic does work in many cases it is good. Try it and see if it helps.

          I speak from my experiences with several different chiropractors. May the luck be with you in finding relief through chiropractic.

        • L November 1, 2019 at 1:34 pm

          So right. True of any profession. I had one that ended up sending me to the hospital because the treatment she did what contraindicated by the condition…and another one that helped immensely. (The latter was non-force…very gentle)

        • Andrea November 1, 2019 at 2:13 pm

          Thanks Don. L, yes chiropractice can be very harsh if done incorrectly or for some issue that don’t need that particular treatment.

  25. Dee November 1, 2019 at 12:55 pm Reply

    Ok I had to small skin growths removed and the Doc used small topical injection of lidocaine to numb both areas. I am freaking out a little because I know a couple Floxie’s had bad reaction from lidocaine given for dental work. Anyone have issues with lidocaine or know how Floxie’s do with it?? I figure I might have had a smaller amount injected compare to dental work? I am real nervous right now and probably over reacting!! Any feedback for me on this from you Floxie’s out there?? I’m 28 months out and don’t need a relapse or bad flare! Hopefully I will be fine! I think my nerves are getting to me more then the lidocaine!!

    • Don M November 1, 2019 at 4:25 pm Reply

      Since many times people have mentioned how Lyme Disease symptoms run so parallel to Fluoroquinolone Toxicity symptoms maybe this doctor’s information should be read. https://rawlsmd.com/

      • Henk Noordhuizen November 2, 2019 at 1:55 am Reply

        Hi Don,thanks for the link;quite interesting!

        There’s one symtom that FQ’s and Lyme share,and why FQ’s are really bad for people with Lyme:

        “But the big thing is these drugs interfere with collagen synthesis, and they’re toxic to mitochondria in the body. This is especially bad for Lyme disease patients who already have problems with their collagen synthesis being challenged. Then you throw this antibiotic on top of it, and it can lead to real problems.”

        That’s all I could find on that website,apart from the fact that many Lyme patients get an FQ prescription from their doc,And the doc will blame adverse reactions from the FQ on the Lyme disease,which is known to have a broad collection of symptoms.So,he,and his pills are not to blame,right?Well,the fact that FQ-toxification and Lyme are both multy-symptomal,and with several overlapping symtoms makes life easy for docs,looking for a skapegoat.

        Here’s another article on FQ’s and Lyme:


        • Don M November 2, 2019 at 7:38 am

          Either they (MD doctors) try to blame something else or as one told me. “Fluoroquinolone Toxicity ….. never heard of it!!”. I have learned the term “Gas lighting”. It seems to be soooo appropriate for many MD doctors.

        • L November 2, 2019 at 9:34 am

          Both the initial ND I saw (after being thrown under the bus by 12 allopaths) and the first integrative MD (internist ) that I saw, both of whom I got my many IVs from, treated both floxies and those with Lyme. In fact the ND’s IV patients were about 50% Lyme, 40% cancer and 10% floxies. The MD is a lyme specialist. And the all the protocols were very similar. That’s why I always say that if someone can’t find a doctor who has treated floxies, the next best is to find one that treats Lyme…esp. using IV therapy. As damaged as I was, head to toe, including several organs and systems, I don’t think I would be where I am today had I not done it.

      • Henk Noordhuizen November 2, 2019 at 1:57 am Reply
        • Don M November 2, 2019 at 7:31 am

          I recently and FINALLY found an ND doctor that I think I can trust for more than earning money from me. He ordered some lab tests that were common but seemed to be beyond the scope of what MD doctors looked for. Bottom line it appears that the Epstein Barr Virus that 95% of us carry has become (reactivated) active in my body. As I research it there seems to be no effective MD prescription for the problem but there seems to be several alternative ways to quell the virus. Seems that there is no real way to totally eliminate it but suppressing it is possible. It’s symptoms seem to run pretty parallel to the symptoms of Fluoroquinolone Toxicity. I may not be getting any better now but (between the ND doctor and the information on the Internet) at least I am zeroing in on why I have the problems I have. I may add …… without the help of any MD physicians. I am now looking forward to some better days.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 2, 2019 at 8:05 am

          Some people have had successes batling the Epstein Barr virus with the Bob Beck Protocol.Here is a testimonial of a woman who was succesfull in winning the battle:


          Modern medicine has only a few anti-viral medicines,and those are not very effective,and have adverse reactions.The Beck Protocol works,but the devices are quite expensive,but for handy people there’s the possibility to build them in a cheap way,using the original diagrams,which can be found on the website,dedicated to him.See the link,above;the info for self building is on the same website as the testimonial.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 2, 2019 at 8:10 am

          More testimonials on Bob Beck Protocol:


        • Don M November 3, 2019 at 11:10 am

          A very scary reading. It seems that many in the MD side of the medical profession are complicit with the ones advocating population control. Strong statement? Yes…… Is it really true? Maybe. It seems like the only person one can trust to be really concerned about our health is us.

    • Saff November 2, 2019 at 9:54 am Reply

      Hi Dee, sorry to say but I had a reaction from it when I had a mole removed, I got better after a few months back to normal, or as close to normal now after being floxed. I’ve had reactions to amoxicillin, fluconazole and also possibly some paraben preservatives.

  26. Don M November 3, 2019 at 10:48 am Reply

    A tip from Data Doctors computer repair……… “Avoid clicking the link and do your own search for what they claim is supporting evidence by putting whatever the headline is from the link they posted”.
    “If the info is legit, it will have been indexed by Google, so don’t ever take any link at face value in the comments section of any website”.
    Do we here need to be challenging every reference made by another floxie? Such a shame that the Internet is so infested with corrupt hackers that we can not trust the references posted by members.

  27. Attila November 4, 2019 at 1:50 am Reply

    Hello! Please let me know what kind of panil killer can I use because of ibuprofen can be risky for me. Any advise? Thank you!

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 4, 2019 at 3:49 am Reply

      Attila,the only painkiller I use is Paracetamol.And,although docs tell you that you can use up to 4000mg per day,I always try to keep 3000mg as a maximum.Only use the amount,needed to bring the pain to a level I can tolerate.

      • Attila November 4, 2019 at 4:27 am Reply

        Hi Henk! Thank you for your answer. Good to know that there is some what could easy my lower arm pain – i hope.

        • Don M November 4, 2019 at 6:54 am

          Attila……… Look into light therapy for pain relief. Google “infrared light therapy”. No drugs involved and totally painless. No limits on how often it can be used. It works and it works quick. LED bulbs are available that target the two ranges of light that are best suited for this purpose. Bulbs are availability on Amazon for around $40. https://www.amazon.com/SGROW-Light-Infrared-Therapy-Relief/dp/B07JW9RZ7K/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=therapy+Grow+light&qid=1572874168&sr=8-9
          Read up on”Cold Laser”. Plenty of information on Google.
          I use the Cold Laser unit and light therapy from a bulb every day.
          I have explained it more on previous posts. For more information go back and look at them. No need for drugs when light therapy is effective and safe.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 4, 2019 at 11:07 am

          Attila,I agree with Don about the use of Infrared,and Neaar Infrared light.You could give it a (first) try with an inexpensibe filament Infrared lamp;the ones from Philips are known to be of gooed quality,and tested;they really work,.When this helps you,you might consider to buy a more expensibe led lamp or panel,later on.

  28. Chemo-brain-fogg November 4, 2019 at 5:00 am Reply

    Repositioning of fluoroquinolones from antibiotic to anti-cancer agents: An underestimated truth https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0753332218370689

    Ubiquitous Nature of Fluoroquinolones: The Oscillation between Antibacterial and Anticancer Activities https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745469/

    Ciprofloxacin induces apoptosis and inhibits proliferation of human colorectal carcinoma cells https://www.nature.com/articles/6600079


    • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 1:59 am Reply

      The first article was discussed,here,a wile ago.

      The second article (NCBI): “Since clinically relevant FQs are known to be safe in humans, how then do they discriminate cancer cells from healthy cells?”

      Well,they don’t! Not alway’s,or maybe,not at all.These researchers seem to live on another planet and are totaly unaware of,what’s nowadays called FQ toxicity.Or they are FQ-tox deniers.

      The third article (Nature) is an old one,which is not historically correct.Cipro was first developped as a chemo,but failed the tests because it was not very effective,and had (and still has!) severe adverse reactions.It was then repositionen as an antibiotic,but now,with more and more people getting cancer and the tides are turning for Cipro as an antibiotic (the Black Box warnings,and more awareness about the dangers of this poison),plans are made for a reposistioning,making Cipro even more lucrative.

      Article number four (ResearchGate): “Adverse reactions are mild to moderate”.

      Well,tell that to all the Floxies,and to the families who lost there loved ones because of those “mild and moderate” reactions!

      I’m wondering:why do you place these info links here? What are your motivations?All four links seem to promote the idea that Cipro,and other FQ’s are very safe and a blessing for humanity.Not so convincing,in the light of all the recent discoveries of their long term dangers!

  29. Don M November 4, 2019 at 9:58 am Reply

    Atilla……..Paracetamol, also known as acetaminophen….. Paracetamol is just another name for acetaminophen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol “Acetaminophen can cause serious liver damage if more than directed is used”. As with any pain killer caution should be used and definitely find out the places where acetaminophen use is more dangerous.

    As I keep promoting ….. Try the light therapy. No drugs, no harm to the body and it works.

    • Sheila rogers November 4, 2019 at 10:06 am Reply

      Atilla – I use Percogesic which is a combo of acetaminophen and an antihistamine seems that the combo of the two relieves my pain and I can sleep which I can’t normally do. I only take one tablet to start with it’s over the counter so no prescription needed but the dosage is two every 6-8 hours – I am sensitive to drugs so I take one and wait to see if I need the second one as long as you don’t take more than the recommended dosage and don’t take even that for any length of time constantly you should be ok unless you already have liver/kidney problems then I would ask a doctor what would be the best dosage. And yes I trust doctors on these simpler matters. Amazon also carries Percogesic and I have it on drop ship.

    • Attila November 4, 2019 at 11:52 am Reply

      Thanks for your reply. 🙂 i have Philips Infrared lamp, but i heard that warming effect has advers reaction on tennis elbow. I’m near 22 months after poisoning and I do not know what could I do more 🙂 … My right lower arm started to hurt approx 5 months ago – strange becuase it is started when I hit 17months off. At the beggining I do not recognised any kind of muscle issues (delayed effects). So now I trying herbal creams but without any success until now. So that’s why I’m looking for some sollution.

      • Sheila rogers November 4, 2019 at 12:06 pm Reply

        Attila – my mother in law swore by Blue Emu cream she was dying of ovarian cancer and her pain was ungodly in her lower back but she said as soon as she applied that cream it eased it so much she forgot it hurt. Have tried Blue Emu? it comes in a jar. I haven’t tried it but if I see it I will get some cause I literally could see the relief on her face when she rubbed it in. Might be worth trying if you tolerate creams ok.

      • L November 4, 2019 at 4:13 pm Reply

        infra red light should not warm

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 12:05 am

          “infra red light should not warm”??? L.,Infrared light and warmth are two manifestations of the same energy.This is,why infrared detectors registrate temperature differences,making it possible to see where houses loose heat (need for better isolation..),and why we can see living objects in the dark (they emit warmth/infrared energy).


        • L November 5, 2019 at 12:20 am

          I have one. I don’t feel any warmth from it. It’s 660 nm ad 850 nm near infrared. I think whatever heat there is dissipates by the time it gets to the skin (I use 6″ away) and the bulb is never hot to the touch. Just telling you my experience. Don’t want to get into a whole thing here.

        • Don M November 5, 2019 at 4:30 pm

          L…… There is a difference between the Philips type infrared bulb and the newer style made with LEDs. The Philips type bulb (getting this from researching the Phillips web site) is a regular style bulb with a filament that does get hot. It’s “nm” range is mid range and up to 1,000 nm. Not really specified to be a certain nm range. The LED bulbs are made with light emitting diodes and produce very little heat. The LEDs are dedicated to certain nm ranges. Typically 600+ and 800+ are the most advertised. Said to be 650 nm and 850 nm. Yes. There is a difference in heat (a big difference) between the two types of infrared bulbs. The bulb that I have has 12 diodes (6 near red @ 660 nm and 6 far infrared @850 nm. I can hold it directly on my skin and do feel heat but just a bit. The panel that I have has 225 diodes (near and far) split about 1/2 and 1/2. I can lay it directly on my body and yes there is some heat but I do not feel an uncomfortable level if heat.

        • L November 5, 2019 at 5:15 pm

          yeah, I forgot about those old style ones

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 6, 2019 at 4:11 am

          Don,the Philips infrared lamps emit infrared from 600nm (the red filter cuts light below 600nm),and peaks at 1000nm,effectively covering the IR-A area,which has the deepest penetration.

          This is an original publication about the research:

          “The scientific presentations and discussions emphasised results of clinical and in vitro biology studies demonstrating the dramatic therapeutic effects of LLLT and LILAB. Near-infrared in wavelengths between 630-1 100 nm has been used successfully to: I) increase the rate of repair of open epidermal and connective tissue lesions, 2) treat severe mouth ulcers in immunologically compromised children following radiotherapy, 3) treat superficial cuts and severe abrasions in submariners, 4) increase the rate of bone regeneration surrounding dental implants, and 5) eliminate dental hypersensitivity (pain) associated with exposed dentin. LILAB has direct effects on mitochondria1 func- tions and cytochromes. Studies on cultured nerve cells indicate that LLLT stimulates regeneration of neurites in damaged retinal cells. The materials published here are ex- pected to become milestones, forming a novel platform in biomedical photobiology.”See page 6:


          The problem with those specific 650,850 nm’s is that those are available leds,which can be used for researched.Leds at 730nm are researched as well (that same research),and were equaly effective.What the led panel makers tell you that those two frequenties are the best frequenties,but,in fact,the whole range from 600-1400 is effective,because of the deep penetration of those light waves.Leds can only emit a particular frequenty,and it’s difficult to make leds,made for different frequenties.And the deep penetration is the reason why those leds,and every other source of IR/Near IR light is so effective.Nothing to do with specific “miracle” frequenties like 650,730 or 858,at all.More,so,with commerce.

          That’s the reason that those leds and bulbs are all made with 650nm and 850 nm leds;there might be more leds in usable frequenties available,but lamp-and panel producers obviously chose for the cheaper ones,with frequenties that are simpler and cheaper to produce.And low power leds are much cheaper that high power leds (which also need extreme cooling,or they will destroy themsemselves by the heat they generate).And a bulb with 20 or more leds is more impressive than a bulb with 2,or 4,and easier to sell.Same for the panels,although spreading the light is easier with more leds.Lenses to spread the ligh are still necesary,and they will filter part of the light,making the effective amount of light (the light that reaches the skin) lower.

          All this,and the fact that the Philips lamps are a lot cheaper makes me choose for those good old filament lamps.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 6, 2019 at 4:13 am

          Here’s the link to the Philips IR lamp info (they make those same lamps in a halogen version as well):


      • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 2:19 am Reply

        ” i have Philips Infrared lamp, but i heard that warming effect has advers reaction on tennis elbow”

        What I found:


        So,on the onset of the problem heat must be avoided,but,later on,heat (and the infrared and infrared waves) will help in the healing process,and ease the pain.

      • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 2:23 am Reply

        A magnetic pulser,like the Sota Magnetic Pulser,or a self built one (info on the Bob Beck website),might help as well;I use it very often on all the (tendon/nerve?) pains since i’ve been floxed,and with very good results.Both my home made ones and the Sota MP I bought after many good results with my self builts.

  30. Dee November 4, 2019 at 10:48 am Reply

    Saff, when you reacted to Lidocaine what were your symptoms??? How long had you been floxed when you reacted?? Did your reaction come on right away or over several days or weeks??? Are you completely recovered now from that reaction and floxing??? It has been 3 days since my lidocaine shots and I noticed my neuropathy ( tingling, pins/needles) not any pain, is a lot more ramped up! I hope this is just a flare up that won’t last long!!??? You said it took you months to get better after lidocaine?? That is scary but good news is you got better!! Just curious about your story! Thank you Siff!!!

    • Saff November 5, 2019 at 2:37 am Reply

      Hi Dee, my symptoms were the same as those I had after taking levofloxacin, but a little bit milder, pins and needles, tendon pain, aching all over, feeling weak. It started probably a few days afterwards and gradually got better after about 3 months I was back to normal. It was 2 years after my initial floxing that I was given lidocaine. I’m just very concerned as I seem to react to a lot of medications now with no pattern, I thought it was to do with cyp3a4, which metabolizes a lot of drugs, however when I took amoxicillin I had the same reaction again and that drug does not use cyp3a4. I’m worried about any surgery I might have in the future, if I have a large dose of a general anesthetic it may mean I am very I’ll for a very long period of time…

      The supplements I take to get better are the usual stated on here and other sources, I think of I ever have a massive reaction I may have to try ozone therapy and possibly IVs.

      You will be ok though Dee, you’ve gotten better before and you will again, that’s how I try to look at it!

  31. A.Coleman November 4, 2019 at 5:28 pm Reply

    I need the opinion of the wise Floxie sages, please. As many of you know I am getting closer to getting well, but I hit a snag.

    Here is the background that matters. Nerve and digestive problems have been the primary problems for me. Digestion is much better and nerve problems have also been pretty good last 12 months. I was floxed a little over four years ago.

    I am C677T MTHFR. Main symptoms as of a month ago were brain fog, headaches, head pressure and newly developed anxiety / panic attacks. A month ago I was taking the following – methylated B vitamins (one of which included ALA), liposomal glutathione, Mg, Vitamin D, CoQ10, carnitine, arginine, and electrolytes. I have been taking B vitamins for nearly the full four years since being floxed. I have been taking methylated forms for over two years since I found out I was C677T. I did not tolerate the fully methylated form of folate at first, so was taking folinic acid form. I switched to a fully methylated form around 6 months ago and was taking 1/2 dose of that alternating weekly with 1/2 dose of the folinic acid form and then 1/2 dose of a general food based B vitamin every day. Last time my B levels were checked they were all high normal – about 9 months ago. Prior to that test I cut my overall B supplementation in half.

    Trying to solve headaches I was slowly eliminating supplements – CoQ10, arginine, carnitine. Two weeks ago I dropped the glutathione.

    Well that was both a good move and a bad move. I had a couple of great days and then boom had a horrible panic attack and anxiety. Then last Friday it was so bad I could hardly function. I read up online and discovered that the symptoms of overmethylation were exactly what I had been experiencing. (See this article on the MTHFR.net website – http://mthfr.net/overmethylation-and-undermethylation-case-study/2012/06/27/). Links on that webpage take you to information about avoiding methylfolate side effects.

    So, I started taking low dose Niacin (25mg) as needed and stopped my B vitamins. Now 10 days later the brain fog is much better, headaches and head pressure are a lot better and I basically feel pretty good for a floxie at least. The problem is that without the B vitamins my peripheral neuropathy is coming back pretty fast. My feet now hurt about like they did 18 to 24 months ago; they fluctuate a bit from day to day but the trend is down.

    So, how do I balance this? In the above article they talk about the importance of taking glutathione and electrolytes when supplementing with methylated B vitamins. They also suggest hydroxycobalmin (B12) and folinic acid instead of the fully methylated variants. I re-added the glutathione and have had no issues.

    Now what’s next? Re-add my old B vitamin with folinic acid at a lower dose and be sure to take glutathione and electrolytes? My integrative medicine specialist is the one who discovered the MTHFR issue. HOWEVER, I figured out the over-methylation issues on my own and don’t think she has a ton of MTHFR experience. Or contact a naturopath online; quite a few position themselves as MTHFR specialists? And if so, does anyone have any recommendations for a naturopath who takes patients over the phone and specializes in MHTFR?

    I am considering tinkering on my own – worst case scenario I over-methylate again, take Niacin for the short term and make modifications; because it is free and can be started immediately; then if I can’t figure it out alone I can go to the specialists.

    I really, really think I am getting close and think that MTHFR issues caused by the floxing are really the main thing left for me to solve. I think my current problems are probably 80% due to MTHFR and 20% due to remaining floxie issue. THANKS EVERYONE!

    • L November 4, 2019 at 5:35 pm Reply

      well, I have never heard of folinic acid. I have heard of folic acid and folate. And I can tell you that if you have that mutation, you do NOT want to take folic acid. Not only can your body not utilize it, but it will build up and become toxic. What you do want is the 5-mthf form.

      What did the doctor say as far as your B’s being high on the test?

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 5, 2019 at 12:53 am Reply

      A.Coleman,I think that testing the levels of all things you supplemented would be wise,here.Your B-vitamines,Magnesium (taking a Magn. supp,ánd a re-mineralisation supp,together,might be too much;there will be quite a lot of magnesium in that minerals-supp.),and vit.D.

      One important thing I found:

      “People with MTHFR mutations may want to avoid foods that contain the synthetic form of folate, folic acid — though the evidence is not clear that’s necessary or beneficial.”

      You might want to read the whole webpage;it’s quite interesting info for people with MTHFR.

      “People with MTHFR mutations may want to avoid foods that contain the synthetic form of folate, folic acid — though the evidence is not clear that’s necessary or beneficial.”

      MTHFR is a hype,right now,and despite of the fact that there’s hardly any research done,apart from statistic research,the whole medical and alternative world has jumped on it and everybody wants to earn a penny (or more).So,be carefull,not to fully go for the hype,untill more research is done.By the way:MTHFR is so common,in both forms,that they are actually called variants,not mutations.Like “blond hair” vs “dark hair” or “red hair”.

      ” The takeaway

      Your MTHFR status may or may not be affecting your health. More research is needed to determine the true impact, if any, associated with the variants.

      Again, many respected health organizations don’t recommend testing for this mutation, especially without other medical indications. Speak with your doctor about the benefits and risks of testing, as well as any other concerns you may have.

      Continue to eat well, exercise, and practice other healthy lifestyle habits to support your overall well-being.”



      • L November 5, 2019 at 1:07 am Reply

        That article understates the importance of avoiding folic acid (in any form, whether it’s a supplement or as is found in many foods, like breads. you need to always read lables) “If you have the MTHFR mutation, your body is not able to convert folic acid into usable methyl-folate. This can lead to a buildup of folic acid in the body, causing cardiovascular and other health issues. (18, 19) Because your detoxification process is also compromised, the body is also unable to get rid of the excess folic acid. That’s why it’s so important to avoid folic acid supplements – your body is taxed enough!” https://blog.paleohacks.com/mthfr-mutation-why-you-need-to-avoid-folic-acid/#

        • A.Coleman November 5, 2019 at 6:08 am

          L – thanks I get the importance. And I agree the article is a little too unfocused on avoiding folic acid. Just another addition to our food and water that governments seem to think is a panacea – Fluoride and folic acid – UGH.

          But for a C677T MTHFR mutant you can get some folic acid. Those phenotypes process folate at about 67% efficiency of a “normal” person. And for the first 48 years of my life before being floxed clearly folic acid was not an issue. Now I eat organic and mostly paleo; so don’t get much folic acid anyway; but I don’t stress over getting a little. (My wife and I have one cheat day a week and that might include a tortilla shell made with flour or a bit of pasta and very rarely a bun). If you have both MTHFR mutations then your metabolism of folate is very low (around 30% of normal) and avoiding folic acid is more important.

          That is where I think the article is on track. MTHFR status is very important, but as you see in my response to Henk below, I think it is mostly important for a floxie until they recover.

      • A.Coleman November 5, 2019 at 6:02 am Reply

        Henk – thanks for the thought on re-testing; probably a good idea. I looked and found a special panel that is supposed to address all the MTHFR and COMT gene impacted biomarkers – sure I will have to pay for the test, but it was only $125. I will ask my integrative medicine doc to order it. I don’t think I am overdoing the Mg though since I only take 200mg as a supplement and get another 50mg in the electrolyte solution – still below the 400mg daily and as you know floxies often need over 400mg of Mg.

        As to the post – thank you. I had read that one in consulting on my situation. I clearly had any genetic “mutations” my whole life and they never hindered me until I was floxed. Now, however, I think that when the fluoroquinolone threw my body out of balance it is having a harder time regaining balance due to my MTHFR status.

        Maybe an example would help – If you are bailing out a boat using a 500ml pail and water is coming in at 400ml every five seconds then – assume you never sleep (and our cellular mechanism really never does) then you could stay on track; even if a “normal” person had a pail that was 750ml. (A C677T mutant metabolizes MTHF at about 67% of a “normal” person). But due to the FQ I got an extra 1000 liters in the boat and it is about to sink. So, now the impaired ability to empty the boat really makes an impact. That “normal” person would get rid of an extra 350ml of water with every dump; but a C677T mutant would only clear 100ml extra. The normal person would empty the boat and catch back up with a bit over 2700 pails; the mutant would take literally 10000 pails.

        Maybe a corny analogy, but I think it explains things. IF I were a normal person I would not worry about my MTHFR status; but clearly as a floxie something is causing issues and my investigations seem to track there. I do NOT anticipate staying on B vitamins at the same levels I am now for the rest of my life – but they were clearly helping my neuropathy and if I can find a balance I think it will be important.

        One thing I did learn about this episode is, even if no new symptoms develop, to try stopping the vitamins in six months and reassess. Appreciate the thought too not to jump on the bandwagon and I have really considered that input. I will keep that in mind over the next month as I figure this out.

  32. Dee November 5, 2019 at 2:25 pm Reply

    Saff. Thanks for getting back!! I was glad to hear you were better from lidocaine within 3 months!!! I have hope that my neuropathy and also itchy skin ( which is after lidocaine) will soon get better!! Fingers crossed!!!! I am also 28 months out so 2+ years later reacting!! Argh!! Do you feel fully recovered now from floxing?? I will tell you that I had to get a colonoscopy and endoscopy and they put me out with propofol. That is a milder anesthesia. I had no problems with it and most Floxie’s I talked with did fine with it. I haven’t had to have a surgery with stronger anesthesia and hope I don’t have to!! Hopefully you will also avoid surgery for a very long time or forever would be even better!!!! I hope you are fully or mostly recovered!!! I have a little ways to go. Still have some early morning insomnia and digestive issues upon waking up meaning many runs to the bathroom!! Anyway thanks for getting back to me!!

    • saff November 14, 2019 at 1:12 pm Reply

      Hi Dee, how are you feeling? Thank you for telling me about propofol!

      I am probably 90% recovered, I still sometimes get pins and needles and mild tendon pain, but I am at the gym and pretty much carrying on as normal the only issue I seem to have it I keep reacting to other medications without any pattern, so I’m trying to avoid most, I’m ok with vitamins, paracetamol, antihistamines and foods so far!

  33. Michael November 5, 2019 at 11:44 pm Reply

    Hi guys, Hope everybody is doing well / coping as best we can under the circumstances. Quick question: for those who developed neuropathy post-floxxing, can you please describe:
    a) the parts affected and whether it was broadly speaking ‘length-dependent’ (i.e worse the further away from your body, feet > hands)
    b) how long you had it for before it resolved or if not resolved yet, how long you have had it for
    c) what sort of sensations you experienced
    d) whether the symptoms ‘cycled’ or not (i.e. were they more or less continuous or did you have flare-up and symptom-free periods)

    Me first:
    a) mine at present is in my arms and legs, but much more so in my legs, with only a little bit of dysaesthesia in my upper arms, and much worse symptoms in my feet and otes
    b) I have had my symptoms for about 4 months, they got a bit better at the 1 month mark, then worse again and slowly started improving but got worse again in the last few days
    c) all sorts of sensations: predominantly burning dysaesthesia, but also tingling, stabbing, stinging, buzzing, fluttering….. you name it.
    d) my symptoms have been cyclical so far in that they tend to vary in severity both during the day (worse first thing and in the evening) as well as on a day by day basis with some days relatively symptom free and may be like that for a few days, with flare ups in between.

    Thanks and God bless,


    • A.Coleman November 7, 2019 at 6:38 am Reply

      Michael, neuropathy is one of my main post floxing symptoms. I am a bit over 4 years post flox and unfortunately I do still have neuropathy; but it is not as bad as when first floxed. Under the best circumstances it is almost completely gone; but as you have noted it waxes and wanes. It is worse in my feet and inner surfaces of my lower legs. Was once in my hands and lower arms; but has been gone from there at least a year. Until about a month ago it was only a minor factor in my feet.

      Things that helped are Mg and Epsom salt soaks along with Vitamin B complex. I recently had to pause my B vitamins due to other situations and the neuropathy in my feet has gotten worse. Without the B vitamins I am about where I was 18 months ago. Hopefully I can figure out how to re-add them soon.

      To answer your questions exactly:

      A) Neuropathy started in feet (mostly my toes and ball of foot area) then progressed to my lower legs and hands. Today it is only toes and lower parts of inner surface of legs.
      B) Neuropathy started on day 1 and got a little better for a few months then around 3 months out got very bad. (I think my body threw all its reserves of B Vitamins at it until they were exhausted.) Then started very slowly getting better with lots of ups and downs (cycles mostly on a day to day basis). Though there seems to be a six-month relapse phase when it gets much worse for a couple of weeks.
      C) Neuropathy in feet is burning and general pain. Neuropathy in lower legs is very strange. It is a sensation of cold triggered by either cold temps (less than 50 degrees Fahrenheit) or touch of fabric. So in summer with shorts on I don’t notice it at all. And if I cover my legs with a blanket while at home it goes away. In hands was just an upleasant tingle.
      D) See B – yes it cycles a lot like all floxie symptoms seem to do. I have two or three better days then one or two worse days with minor and major relapses when it gets worse for longer. And mine does vary during the day like yours too – worse when getting up; gets better mid-day then gets worse later in the day. You have to learn to look at it on a month by month basis; not even week by week

      Good luck in your recovery. I would focus on the things I suggest above. Maybe check your MTHFR status if you don’t respond to typical B vitamins. Expect it to take a lot of time. At least a year to get better. Personally I know that my feet can get back to normal since I have some days that are completely symptom free; just have to wait and be patient. Don’t know about my legs. The current weird cloth related cold is only a year old and getting better – so hopefully one day it will be normal too. If I can get back on B vitamins at a good dose I think foot neuropathy will be a thing of the past.

      • Michael November 7, 2019 at 8:25 pm Reply

        Thanks for this. You’ve given me hope. I know it’s a long game now to see how much of this is reversible. I’m glad you’re better than you were. I hope you recovery fully. The fact that you have continued to notice ongoing improvement even so many years post floxxing is promising in my view. Can I ask your age and how much Cipro you took? I am 41 and took about 4 weeks of Cipro 500mg twice daily.

        • A.Coleman November 8, 2019 at 10:20 am

          Michael I was 48 when floxed and took 500mg cipro once daily for a week. Your double dosage for a month continuously is a lot compared to many on this forum. I do strongly believe that age at floxing is a major factor. The younger people are when floxed the faster they heal and those who are in their 60s and older seem to have the hardest time healing – though many do heal; it just takes longer.

          I personally react very poorly to almost all meds – my list of meds to which I am allergic is very long and includes pretty much any antibiotic other than penicillin and others in that family.

          Good luck and try to stay positive.

        • Michael November 8, 2019 at 2:38 pm

          Thanks man.

          Yeah the reason I took so much is because I was basically gaslighted by most of the doctors I saw. I suspected it was an adverse reaction but I just want getting any confirmation from my doctors.

          In fact my Urologist offered to give me Levaquin (levofloxacin) as an alternative! Which thank God I didn’t take because I gather that’s even worse than Cipro.

          I’m pretty much back to normal though 4 months out in *most* respects but neuropathy wise I am still in quite a bit of pain. I’m going to try gabapentin and see a pain specialist and see what they say.

          Good luck to you also. I genuinely believe the nervous system has a long-term capability to repair itself which I believe will happen with us. But it’s a long game…

      • Krabiwi November 10, 2019 at 7:02 pm Reply

        With neuropathies you can try high dosage vitamin B1 250mg and even more daily, best is benfotiamin. Some experience good results, my neuropathies are now almost gone, they only happen every once in a while and very mild. 19 month out now.


        • Michael November 10, 2019 at 7:08 pm

          Thanks Krabiwi. Also high dose B12 is meant to help I believe.

          Can I ask what type of neuropathy you had? I have small fibre exclusively (tested so).

          At it’s worst how bad was it? I have it now in my feet, soles up to my knee. Only very rarely I will get a slight sensation in my arms. 16 weeks out at the moment.


        • Henk Noordhuizen November 11, 2019 at 2:09 am

          Hi Krabiwi,don’t you think taking the whole vit. B complex is a better idea? Taking one vit. of the complex is told to outbalance the complex,and might create new problems.

          The B vitamines are extremely important for nerves and mental health,;in 1953 Abram Hoffer discovered that schizophrenia can be cured with high doses vit. B3! This must be done under strict monitoring because this high dose can cause liver poisoning.He also discovered that B3 can lower a (too) high cholesterole.So,taking high doses of (some of the) B vitamines can be risky,while vit. B supplementation can be a bless,as well.Bbe carefull!

          While orthomolecular treatment is,by “science based medicine) still seen as quackery,in the 50’s,the time when synthetic psyciatric “medicines” were introduced,multi-vitamines were regarded a threat,and total war was declared at Hommer,and,later on,Linus Pauling.Vitamines and minerals can (still!) not be patented,and are seen as competitors, and their importance in medical treatment ridiculed.

          My opinion is,that orthodox medicine may be the most promissing way to go,for floxies.It is the most respectfull and sensible way:by trusting in the self-healing ability of the human body and offering it everything it needs to repair thel damage,done by the Farmafia and their crazy alchemists.

        • Michael November 11, 2019 at 2:44 am

          I am currently taking this one (and additional B12 – methylcobalamin):


          It has 100mg of B1.

          My main concern with the B complex is that apaprently you can get neuropathy from taking too much pyridoxine (B6) so I don’t want to overdo it with the mega-doses.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 14, 2019 at 2:46 am

          Michael,in which form do you take the B12? I use the methylcobalamin spray,and I’m very satisfied with it. It’s better absorbed than the B12 pills.

        • A.Coleman November 11, 2019 at 10:46 am


          I would stick to the B complex like Henk suggests and if necessary supplement with B12 as you are doing to get more. HOWEVER, when I followed the link to your B vitamin I notice that it contains non-bioavailable forms of lots of the B vitamins. It has forms of B6 and Folate (B9) that are not directly usable by your body. If you don’t have any MTHFR mutations then those forms are fine; but if you do then you need different forms of those in addition to the methylated form of B12 you note above. You can oversupplement with B6 and trigger neuropathy; but it takes a lot more than in your B complex and if you take the pyridoxial 5-phosphate form; it is less likely to cause issues.

          As I noted in my first response on this topic; if I were you I would get my MTHFR status checked and then start supplementing with the correct forms of B vitamins for your genotype. Depending on what you find out there you may need to add in electrolytes and liposomal glutathione.

          If you have a mutation for MTHFR you won’t be able to process the folic acid in your B complex very well and taking that high dose will lead to it piling up in your system causing other imbalances.

          What I am dealing with now seems to be a combination of MTHFR and COMT mutations that are not exactly with my long term supplementation with B vitamins, even though I was taking the correct forms and support supplements for my MTHFR status.

          MTHFR is a very complex issue and I would urge you to work with someone knowledgeable to treat if you test and find you have any of the various recessive alleles – which are actually quite common in the general population.

          Personally, my body seems to be telling me to stop everything for a while in the B family and supporting supplements; but I have been supplementing for 4 years now; and while most B vitamins aren’t stored by your body B12 and folate (B9) can be stored in the liver.

        • Michael November 14, 2019 at 9:40 pm

          Henk I take methylcobalamin in little 1000mcg pills that I chew. I take loads maybe 5 a day depending on how I feel. These are the ones:


          you can let them dissolve in your mouth also but I’m always in a hurry!

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 15, 2019 at 2:46 am

          Hi Michael,for people who are always in a hurry,there’s the Methylcobalamin spray :-)) I’ve used Advantage B12 spray for years,now I’m using Ergomax spray;this one has both Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin;the active forms of B12.One spray/day under the tongue will do (500 mcg).Of course,you’re free to take more spray’s if wanted/needed.


        • Henk Noordhuizen November 15, 2019 at 2:51 am

          For people like me,with low stomach acid,the sublingual forms are more effective:


          There even seems to be a nasal spray.Never seen it,offered in a webshop but never did a search for it,either.

        • Krabiwi November 16, 2019 at 1:32 pm

          Hi together, best is to take a complex in general as base line, not only B-complex but also trace elements and amino acids to avoid nutritional defencies under oxidative stress which consumes a lot of nutritions. Nutritions work like a chain all together, it’s indeed senseless to supple one without the others.

          On top and depending on symptoms it can make sense to high dose single vitamins, i.e. 250 mg B1 against neuropathies and 250 – 2000 mg B3 Niacinamide(NAM) to push mitophagy and getting rid of mutated mtDNA copies step by step.

          I would only high dose B12 if there is a diagnosed shortage to fill the storage. Compared to other B-viramins B12 contains cobalt, a metal and therefore it can’t excreted by kidneys that easy.

          These are therapeutic vitamin dosages and of course they can have side effects. I.e. one can damage his liver from too many dosages above 3000 mg NAM and mitophagy push from experience can be very tough and increases symptoms in the short run due to decrease of ATP, so one must exactly know what to do.

          After my first high dose of NAM, 750 mg, at that time 4 month post flox, due to strong mitophagy body temperature decreased by 0.5 °C, I freezed in summer, got very tired for 2 weeks and initial symptoms flared up, but got better after several weeks.

          Today I take 2000mg NAM once in a while on two days and daily 250mg to get rid of the remaining mutated mitochondria, still feel a bit weak after the 2000mg for several days, but not that much anymore as quality of mtDNA increases. Back to 95% 19 month out, in some areas better as before flox. But my goal is 110% overall.

          Others in our German community experienced similiar results with NAM, it first gets worse and then better after high doses of NAM, a very interesting substance, but again one must know what to do and start slowly in 250 mg steps.

          A fresh floxed with a high amount of mtDNA deletions can theroretically cripple himself with too high doses of NAM.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 16, 2019 at 3:28 pm

          Krabiwi and others,I’d really want to warn for high doses of vit. B3: this can cause liver toxification.so,best to be used/done under the whatchfull eye of a doc,or a therapist.

          NAM: Non Alcoholic Malt ??? Maybe it would be handy to,at least once,write the full name of a substance (?),before using the abbreviation,if only for low intelligence people like me.Thanks very much.

          Have a nice subday,everybody!

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 16, 2019 at 3:29 pm

          typo: I ment Sunday.

        • L November 16, 2019 at 3:40 pm

          I’m glad you corrected that. I was trying to figure out what subday was. I thought “oh, perhaps it’s national submarine sandwich day.” (Although Saturday here. So don’t tell me what happens, let me be surprised.” )

        • Krabiwi November 16, 2019 at 7:38 pm

          Hi Henk, if you read carefully you will notice that its mentioned what NAM stands for. Moreover I mentioned hepatoxicity, which in studies happened after 3g NAM daily for several weeks if I remember right. Doses of 2g daily for many month were already unproblematic. Thanks for your worries, but I don’t need doctors and therapists as I am my own now. The docs brought me here with their med poisons. But you are right, one has to be careful with everything and not doing anything before one at least basically understood what he does with it.

          A a good sunday too to everyone.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 17, 2019 at 2:56 am

          Krabiwi,you’re right;I found it.Brainfog and quite a few eye floaters make focussing on what I read very harde,sometimes.

          About the safe dose:the mentioned 2 grams daily are safe for healthy people,there’s no garantee that this same dose is safe for floxies.I would start at 1 gram,or even lower,and then slowly,step by step,level up to those 2 grams.Just to be sure.After all,floxies can react very different than healthy people,and one floxie can react very different to an other floxie,as well.It’s like taking a walk in a swamp.

        • Krabiwi November 20, 2019 at 12:09 am

          Hi Henk, yes one must carefully start with lower dosages, that’s why it’s recommended to start with 250 mg NAM. To start with 1g is already way too much, as with 500mg I had already strong reactions in my acute flox phase. Logically as time passed after each dose and ongoing mitophagy the reactions got weaker (as quality of mtDNA gets better after each dose) and I increased the dosage step by step up to now 2000 mg.

          I can just recommend to every floxie to type “nicotinamide mitophagy” into google and read through the studies.

    • Michael November 11, 2019 at 3:47 pm Reply

      Thanks A.Coleman.

      I will get my MTHFR status checked.

      Hope you are doing well today. I had an improvement last couple of days. Been using a lot more magnesium both oral and topical.

      I’m tending to believe the theory that Cipro forms stable intercellular crystals that remain in to it body. I’m thinking the added magnesium is competing with the Cipro and suppressing its ability to cause toxicity.


      • A.Coleman November 13, 2019 at 8:09 am Reply


        Not sure about your mechanism of action. I have a degree in biochemistry that I hadn’t been using in my professional life; but it sure got dusted off and used when I was floxed. However, I agree that somehow they are impacting our lives long after we take them – I tend to subscribe more to the theories that they cause cellular damage to our mitochondrial DNA and we have to wait for the better “fit” mitochondrial to outcompete the damaged mitochondria.

        Regardless glad to hear you have seen some improvement. B vitamins definately help my neuropathy. I am to the stage that on B vitamins I have very little neuropathy – none most days in fact. Since I have been off the vitamins my neuropathy has returned; though nothing like it was when first floxed.

        Mg is important too. I favor Epsom salt baths; but know Henk lobbies for just doing foot soaks. I have tried both, and while both work the baths work better for me – I think because of the greatly increased surface area for Mg absorption. Regardless the Epsom salt bath also helps to detox.

        If you are finding that Epsom salt baths work you might want to try a “float” tank. Those old sensory deprivation tanks are making a resurgence as “float” tanks – several locations in the city where I live that you can go for a “float”. The reason I mention is that they use HUGE amounts of Epsom salt to increase the buoyancy of the water so you float. I have tried a few floats and while they seem better than a simple Epsom salt bath; they are not that much better and are much more expensive; plus can’t be done in your own tub.

        Hope you continue to feel better – if your vitamin B production in your gut is working fine; it probably will only be a few months before you are back to normal given the healing you have already exhibited. My problem is that due to the havoc the FQ played on my digestive system I still am not producing Vitamin B at “normal” levels on my own and now I am having issues with supplementation. Having said all that, I know that if I can just get my supplementation adjusted to help where needed without the side-effects I may be close to well.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 14, 2019 at 2:27 am

          “Mg is important too. I favor Epsom salt baths; but know Henk lobbies for just doing foot soaks.”

          I don’t lobby for just doing foot soaks.If lobbying,I would advice Magnesium oil,because that’s the way to put all magnesium directly on the skin,where it is absorbed.

          Of course,a total body soak works better than a foot soak,but not everybody has a bathtub,and then,a foot soak,or towels,soaked in a magnesiumsalt solution are good alternatives.The problem I have with the bathtub methode is the large amount of magnesium salts that go through the drain;this makes the costs of the absorbed magnesium very high.The small amount of “magnesium water” from the foot bath can even be re-used;it’s easy to heat it for another,and even a third soak.Hardly possible to do that with a full bathtub,I guess.

          I’ve used the bathtub method in the past,with Epsom-/bittersalt (magnesium sulfate).Than I discovered Zechstein salt (magnesium chloride),and the magnesium oil they offered.That’s an expensive method,as well,untill I realised that,by buying the Zechstein saltflakes,and making my own magnesium oil,I had found the best,and cheapest way of absorbing magnesium.You only need ca. 660 grams of the flakes,and ca. 600 cl of (destilled) water,put them in a stove and stirr on a low fire untill all the salt is disolved.That’s all;now you have ca. one liter of dirt cheap magnesium oil.(€5,compared to the €35 you’d have to pay for the original oil).

      • Michael November 13, 2019 at 2:18 pm Reply

        Thanks. That’s encouraging. I couldn’t find a full methylated B complex supplement locally (I’m in New Zealand) but I did get some methylated folate (Metafolin) yesterday, will order some methylated B complex online and get my MTHFR done.

        My first degree was Pharmacology. You’d think we would have known better and not taken this poison in the first place eh?

        Regarding the crystals. This came up in that 2017 Polish review of FQ toxicity that is frequently cited:

        “The other important feature of FQs has been presented by Andriole et al. [55]. Namely, they estimated the minimum solubility of FQs in neutral pH. They pointed that this class of molecules is characterized by very high melting point, generally > 200°C, which indicates that the crystal forms are very stable.

        All these FQ features strongly support the thesis that FQs can survive in the cell for a long time contributing to chronic, long-term adverse reaction in patients treated with FQs. The question, to what extent this phenomenon takes place and if it contributes to chronic symptoms of FQAD, remains unclear.”


        That’s why I was thinking maybe the magnesium is inhibiting FQ toxicity while it remains in a crystalline intracellular state. Rather than FQ “leech out” all the magnesium from inside you and then you have to take Magnesium for years to build it back up again…. I would have thought you would only need to do that for a few months if you see what I mean (depending on how much you take of course).


        • A.Coleman November 14, 2019 at 10:41 am

          Michael –

          I would get the MTHFR status checked before trying the methylated folate. You could react very badly to the metafolin; especially if you have an MTHFR mutation. Don’t knock yourself out reading yet – but know this is the best source IMO for MTHFR – http://mthfr.net/

          I know when I started taking L-5-MTHF form of folate I had a very bad reaction; eventually had to take the folinic (NOT FOLIC) acid form to slow down metabolism at the start. If you do try it – I would suggest starting with a 1/4 tablet.

          I have read the study you cite about the crystal forms of the FQs too. I think the reason Mg helps is because of its role in helping cell signaling. Our cells are so low in Mg anyway (modern populations eating farmed food) and low intracellular Mg means our nerve cells don’t signal at 100% efficiency anyway – then add in the impact of FQs and it is even worse. The Mg soaks or oil or whatever helps make sure your nerve cells are working as well as possible given the impact of FQ – again IMO.

          Henk – thanks for clarifying your position. (read smiley face). I too have used the Zechstein Mg oils too. They make my skin really itchy; but do help the neuropathy. And I get the cost savings of the foot bath. I live in the U.S. – we are a wasteful society (read second smiley face). Actually I find I get antsy with the footbath and it gets cold quickly – hard to keep my feet in there 30 minutes; so I use the tub; get water very hot; and read for 30 minutes.

        • L November 14, 2019 at 11:01 am

          Ironically the ONLY warning I got was on the bottle itself…not to take with magnesium. Of course, since mag counters its effects. In fact, in Dr Jay Cohen’s book, he suggests toward the end that perhaps if someone HAD to take it that they take magnesium four hours apart from it.

  34. jo November 6, 2019 at 9:39 am Reply

    Hello Henk
    I remember you talked about tamarind before. Does it seem to help? What does it do for you?

    • Andrea November 7, 2019 at 5:58 am Reply

      I’ve taken tamarind paste in the past for about a cuple of months. The taste was ok, but I’m not sure if it helped or not.
      Anyway, according to some studies, tamarind should help removing fluoride through urine.

    • Andrea November 7, 2019 at 6:00 am Reply

      Sorry, I didn’t read your previous post was intended to Henk, but anyway, I hope my experience it’s helpful regardless

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 7, 2019 at 8:07 am Reply

      Hi Jo,it’s had to impossible to tell if the tamarind helped;FQ toxicity is way too complex,with so many different symptoms,and wellbeing differs from day to day,sometimes even fro hour to hour.And how can you tell if it really removes/removed fluoride from the body without any (urine-)tests?Anyway;I do like the taste of the candies,and the homemade limonade (from tamarind pulp).

      A warning about the user-ready paste,sold in glass containers;those might contain lead,and because the whole pod is used (in stead of just the pulp),some adverse reactions and interactions with medicines might occur.That’s a good reason to only use the pulp,packed with,or without seeds (it’s the pod skin,you’d want to avoid).

  35. jo November 6, 2019 at 9:42 am Reply

    I also wanted to ask if anyone knows if sauna helps for these detox mutations?

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 8, 2019 at 2:20 am Reply

      Jo,the possibility of a sauna,helpint to get rid of FQ/Fluoride leftovers in the body is mentioned a few times,here,but I can’t remember anybody telling us that it helped.It might,a little,but there’s also the small risk of loosing some of those prescious minerals.For the tamarind,there seems to be some scientific proof (measured amounts of fluoride in the urine after eating tamarinde.

  36. Sheila November 8, 2019 at 11:41 am Reply

    Ok I’m gonna try one last time to get someone to at least respond with an “I don’t know” or “never had that issue” or “I’ll look into it” just something before I unsubscribe from the group. I find it disheartening to say the least to see so many comments sometimes for days/weeks about things like light bulbs, supplements, vitamins, intravenous treatments and the like yet every time I ask a simple question one that I have asked 5 times now since I joined, I get crickets, not a word to even acknowledge just the posting. I even shared this last time some very personal parts of my life in hopes of getting someone to see how desperately I need input from others on this issue and still nothing but crickets. So here’s the question that keeps everyone from responding – is anyone else suffering with depersonalization it has been listed as a symptom of being floxed… if so how are you dealing with it??? Why is this such a taboo question to the point that no one even acknowledges I asked?? I’m so frustrated and dumbfounded that no one addresses this, especially since I have asked 5 times already …….it’s bad enough that we are all suffering with this toxicity but for me to have found a group that actually validates my symptoms and suffering to then be ignored when I reach out for answers – well I can get that response from my doctors. Maybe no one bothered to read my last post… I don’t know… but even that would be reason to unsubscribe since it seems that others that post get an answer from someone within 24 hours so it always surprises me when my posts get totally ignored. I was hoping to learn how to deal with my issues by being able to ask questions even though I do not intend on doing some of the treatments that have been suggested to others because they just don’t seem right for me – I do ask questions so I can pick the right suggestion/path for me but this one question is the worst one for me right now and I am getting no input/response – is there a reason this topic is not getting answers? If there is it would be nice to know rather than be ignored especially after sharing some personal info it makes me feel like I shouldn’t have shared much less asked the question……I have for the most part gotten some useful information here in group especially when I wanted a vitamin regimen – thank you to all who have talked with me about other issues and at least I did feel validated that my physical pain was and is real and caused by something other than age as my doctor keeps wanting to say. Anyone know why this particular question is avoided?? I look forward to hearing from someone.

    • L November 8, 2019 at 12:01 pm Reply

      First, people on this site are really doing their best to try to help others. If we talk about light bulbs for a couple weeks it is because people want to know what will best help them. If someone does not respond to your question, it means that no one has an answer to it. We are all just trying out best here, so please don’t get bent out of shape.

      I had a lot of mental issues, and they were so overwhelming it was hard to distinguish one from the other. There was a blanket of depression/paranoia/anxiety/depersonalization…IT was just one big all encompassing umbrella of dread. For me, they all just kind of melted away at the same time, over time. I would guess it was probably about 1 1/2 into it. I was getting a LOT of nutrient IVs (and I have talked about this over and over again on this site) so I don’t know what if anything contributed to all that finally lifting. (The anxiety was the last to go.) For the mental stuff I think TIME was the biggest healer.

      You also want to do word searches on this site. Sometimes people have answered questions over and over and over again, and just don’t want to keep doing it. You cannot take it personally.

      • Sheila rogers November 9, 2019 at 9:28 am Reply

        I understand that everyone is doing their best it just seemed weird that that one question never got anything like I said even an I don’t know but good luck would have been better than feeling invisible. I rely on you guys to help me understand what I am experiencing so I was making a last ditch effort to reach out, and thankfully it has gotten some response for that I am grateful.

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 8, 2019 at 12:34 pm Reply

      Sheila,like L. already wrot,everybody does his/her utter best to help you,and others,answering their questions,but sometimes a question stays un-answered because nobody knows an good answer (and a bad answer won’t help).

      There are quite a few posts about floxie depersonalization,here,on FloxieHope;here’s one,for a start.


      Just use the search,top right on this page,to find other messages here on that topic.I got about 20,or so,hits,so this topic is often mentioned,here.I,myself,didn’t have the feeling of depersonalization,or I didn’t notice because of all the other physical and psychologic symptoms.I was overwelmed by desperateness,depression,fear and anger,and other,less prominent psychologic symptoms;depersonalization might have been among them but went unnoticed by the waterfall of other experiences of being floxed.Didn’t know,or understand what was happening to me,for quite a while.

      So,please,don’t get angry when people don’t answer this one particular question;many people don’t understand what depersonalization is,what it feels like,and can’t even answer the question “Am I,or was I depersonalised at any time since being floxed?I hope,this answer helps you a little bit.

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 8, 2019 at 12:42 pm Reply

      Forgot to mention: many floxies wrote of being confused;wouldn’t surprise me if at least some of them actually were ,in fact,experiencing depersonalisation,at the time.I even can’t tell for sure,from my own mixed up feelings.

    • Michael November 8, 2019 at 1:07 pm Reply

      I had depersonalisation/derealization. I know how scary that feels now.

      I had it for a few months then it went away July itself. At first I thought it was literally because I was anxious or unwell because of my prostatitis which is what I took the Cipro for in the first place.

      However I now realise that was a side effect. The only thing that helped was time and possibly some of the nutrients I took like magnesium and mito Q10.

      • Sheila rogers November 9, 2019 at 9:25 am Reply

        Thank you! what did it feel like to you?? what I have is glancing in the mirror and not knowing who’s face that is or putting on my makeup (I guess you don’t do that lol) and not recognizing myself the whole time. It’s very upsetting and it feels like I’m looking at myself through the eyes of someone else. Is that how you felt? Eventually it goes away but it can happen many times throughout the day.

        • Michael November 9, 2019 at 12:34 pm

          It felt like reality was a movie. Like you were watching the world as if you were not part of it but watching a film as an observer.

          Similarly I felt disconnected with my own body as if manipulating a marionette.

          Very disturbing. I felt like I was losing it. Just took one day at a time and tried to stay objective.

          But I don’t have it any more and I never experienced it before. I am certain that was a side effect of the Cipro.

    • Don M November 8, 2019 at 3:54 pm Reply

      Sheila….. We all would like to help with some sort of coherent answer but when reading the definition of depersonalization it looks kind of hard to make any recommendations because of the widely varied symptoms. Best advice would be to use your computer search engines and research the subject thoroughly. From all the information zero in on your problem.

    • Andrea November 8, 2019 at 4:14 pm Reply

      Sheila, I understand your frustration, but this is not the way you should write in a website like this. Like others pointed out, if nobody is answering your question, it’s probably because they don’t have the answer, and filling the comment section with a lot of “Uhm…I don’t know” or “Nope, never experienced that” isn’t really helpful to anyone. Anyway, to answer your question, no, I never experienced depersonalization. I was very confused, dizzy, depressed, and a I was even asking myself if I should’ve killed myself. But depersonalization, never. Ok?

      • Sheila rogers November 9, 2019 at 9:13 am Reply

        this is the place to write about frustrations with this disorder of toxicity and that includes being frustrated that questions are not answered. I am not angry I just didn’t understand why that one question was NEVER addressed.

        Henk I seriously am not angry just frustrated.

        But I got answers!!! my post got responses, thank god…..all of which at least are helpful in future searches etc. what responses were given were helpful even if they were not a treatment plan which I wasn’t looking for – I was looking for how do people handle it emotionally to look in the mirror and not know who that person is looking back at them. As a member of the group I felt it was important to let you guys know I was going to unsubscribe so that you would realize how frustrated I was this is a serious issue that affects me emotionally it saddens me to not recognize my own face sometimes and you are the only people who can talk to me about that feeling and how you got through it.

        so Thank you to those that shared their experiences and I look forward to anyone else who might have experienced the same thing and how they got through it not medically but personally.


  37. Michael November 8, 2019 at 1:21 pm Reply

    Guys on the subject of light bulbs (seeing as its topical!) has anybody tried the Bioptron?


    A friend of mine used it for concussion and swears by it. Not sure if it might be helpful for some of our issues e.g. neuropathy or joint pain.

    I think the theory is that it helps activate mitochondria which would be exactly counteracting the supposed mechanism (or one of the supposed mechanisms) of FQ toxicity.


    • Don M November 8, 2019 at 4:14 pm Reply

      The Bioptron appears to be very similar to all the things we have discussed previously. No doubt it is effective because it is based on “light therapy”. Light therapy has been around for many years but it seems to be just now catching on. With out a doubt the Bioptron is a very expensive gadget.

      I use a considerable amount of light therapy from a Cold Laser, a 225 LED light panel and a bulb that has 12 LEDs in it. Each of them is using both near red LEDs and far infrared LEDs.
      Different colored light has different affects on the body.
      Light therapy does work for eliminating pain. 15 minutes under the light panel and my feet go from “cringe” territory to comfortable. The affects from the light therapy last after the treatment is over, but only lasts for so long and then it must be repeated. Nice thing about light therapy is there is no limit on how often it can be repeated. No drugs but pain relief.

    • L November 8, 2019 at 6:38 pm Reply

      🙂 you’re funny. I have not, but would be curious why polarization makes it better (if it does.) The one I bought was the one in the link below. Only just started using it, so nothing to report. I got this one because of a space issue; but, I listened to a natural health seminar last week and the guy who talked about light therapy recommended the ones by Platinum and Joov. (Be aware…platinum has a 20% restocking fee which I found out the hard way. Realized I had no where to hang it, store it. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Red+Light+Therapy+Lamp%2C+Wolezek+36W+18+LED+Infrared+Light+Therapy+Device&i=hpc&ref=nb_sb_noss

      • Don M November 11, 2019 at 9:08 am Reply

        L….. Good choice. I use one every day. They are great for localized treatment of pain. They do not cover a large area but for the shoulder, knee, hip or any other specific area they are great. Since they are not “focused” like a Cold Laser is they take more time to do the same thing. I usually try to allow 30 minutes for each area.
        Pain relief does not last long (like some drugs) but since it is a safe non invasive thing (not like drugs) the process can be repeated as often as one wishes.

        Basically what light therapy is doing is coaxing the body to heal itself. Naturally this does not happen quickly. It is said that eventually the need for the light therapy will decrease but it comes slowly. I like it for it’s nearly immediate pain relief. The light therapy is supposed to stimulate the natural endorphins the body has and they mitigate the pain. It works for me. Does it work for everyone? Only trying it and using it long and often enough will answer that question.

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 9, 2019 at 3:51 am Reply

      Hi Michael,I took a look at the available info but this lamp is a no-no for me.First of all;the rediculous price.Second;the rediculous claims and things like:”seven coloured filters that correspond to the seven colours of the sun and to the seven chakras.

      The nobel prize winner,Niels Ryberg Finsen,has discovered that red light stimulates healing of the skin,and that UV can help to cure Lupus.In fact,he suffered from anaemia and tiredness and because his house was situated to face north,he considered, a lack of sunlight might cause his health problems.He spent more time in direct sunlight,from then on,and his health improved.Fact:he discovered that the sun plays a major role in health.


      That (sun-)light has healing proportions is,indeed,the reason he got a Nobel prize.But in fact,the healing power of sunlight was known way earlier,and sun therapee was used all over the world long before the “discovery” of Finsen.The only achievement he made bringing this anecdotal knowledge into science.

      Bioptron website:”Niels Ryberg Finsen developed one of the first devices capable of producing technically synthesized “sunlight”.NOT TRUE! The onlu source I can find for this claim is…on the Bioptron website.

      I can’t find a word about the advantage(s) of polarized light (except,well…you know ;-))

      “A broad range of wavelengths from 480 to 3400 nm, containing the color range of visible light wavelengths plus a part of the infrared spectrum.” Where have I seen that before?Ohjah:simple and cheap warmwhite filament lamps ;-)) The Bioptron does cut off the blue spectrum,probably by the yellow lens in front of the lamp.That makes the lamp look more….technical ;-))

      And,of course,Bioptron wouldn’t be Bioptron if they wouldn’t offer you the AMAZING Tesla(!) Hyperlight glasses.Some of the claims:

      THE® Glasses have an anti-aging effect on the skin around the eyes.

      THE® Glasses uniquely optimize the levels of serotonin (“happiness hormone”), dopamine (“pleasure hormone”), melatonin (the hormone responsible for sleep regulation) and cortisol (stress hormone), bringing them into a natural balance, crucial for a healthy mental and physical functioning of the organism.

      Establish psychological balance and strengthen self-confidence
      Improve mood and lower stress level
      Reduce anxiety, depression and aggression
      Regulate sleep disorders and significantly reduce the consequences of jet lag
      Raise and maintain the necessary level of vitality throughout the day

      Want to give your friends a good laugh?Buy one! They look ridiculous,but they cost only $ 390 ($351 for members).

      Thanks,Michael;quite amusing stuff :-)) Except for the prizes,that is;many people will believe all this nonsense and spend their last money in the hope to get cured,at last.This extremely expensive lamp will not do better than the cheapest infrared filament lamp.

      I love the glasses;I got a bit of wrinkling around my eyes,you know,and it just got worse because of all the laughing,after reading the Bioptron “science”.If just,the price….

      Sorry for the sarcasm.

      • Don M November 9, 2019 at 9:12 am Reply

        Henk……… Interesting post. Infrared light therapy is becoming the rage recently. New ones to the light therapy game don’t realize that it has been around of well over 20 years. Bottom line as you keep saying. The Phillips type infrared bulb does just about everything that all these fancy gadgets do and at a much cheaper price. My only objection to them is the heat that they produce and the electric consumption. If heat is wanted they work fine. The bulbs with the LEDs are cool to the touch and the electric consumption is 1/10th as great.

        People need to become more aware of the ability of infrared light to relieve pain. They could consume from -0- to much less drugs if they only tried it. The only problem is that they do take time. One must spend time under an infrared light to get it’s affects.
        Seems that in today’s hurried world popping a pill is the norm.

        • Don M November 10, 2019 at 7:34 am

          Henk……….. WOW!!! I just watched the sales pitch video on the Biotron. Very impressive. Seems to be trying to convince one that these are the only really sound thinking light therapy gadgets. Expensive gadget when a $10 infrared bulb will do the same thing.

          There is no doubt that light therapy works but it interesting how so many organizations try to capitalize on the idea with their fancy gadgets. I guess the primary purpose is to try to separate people from their $$$$.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 10, 2019 at 9:54 am

          About the Philips lamp:

          The red filter also cuts off light
          below 600 nm to reduce radiation
          which would be absorbed by the
          blood haemoglobin (prevention of

          The Bioptron:

          A broad range of wavelengths from 480 to 3400 nm.

          Frequenties below 600nm might be safe but Philips goes for “safety first”,here.Bioptron does not.

          It’s even hard to find date of the Bioptron energy uptake.From the adapter info,it must be around 30 watts,but there’s no info about the used lamp/led/laser,at all.

          I can go on,this way,but I’ll save my energy for more usefull things.The website,and the data on it are one big mess,and so much mumble-jumble and abra cadabra,aimed at naive people with now technical knowledge.Without the needed data it’s impossible to know how much the real costs of producing this thing may have costed.Paying almost $ 1000 may be just a little bit too much,won’t you think?

          It’s a shame that most people don’t realize that LED is a hype,and much of what thet told us is a lie.High efficiency? Well,the first led generations were\,in fact,hardly more efficient than filament lamps,and most leds,today are at most 50% efficient.And those are the ones with low output;the new generation leds,of 1-10 watts,or even more,are way less efficient,from 20-30 %,and because of the emitted heat they must be efficiently cooled,otherwise their lifespan will be a short one.

          It’s only by forbidding the good old filament lamps,that compact fluorescent lamps and led lamps became “popular”;we were forced into this experiment.Now,bit by bit,te dark sides of these lamps are getting clearer;they contain mercury and other poisonous substances,have a poor light quality and are way less efficient than they told us.Their “dirty electricity ” (fluorescent) and flickering (leds) have a negative impact on our health and this is just the start of what this experiment is gonna learn us.

  38. Dee November 8, 2019 at 3:07 pm Reply

    Bob (from Washington) are you still following this site?? Was just wondering how you are doing???? Haven’t heard from you in a long time! I hope and pray that you are improving and getting better day by day!!!

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  43. Henk Noordhuizen November 9, 2019 at 4:41 am Reply

    Lisa,please,can you do a troll-cleanup?

    • Don M November 9, 2019 at 6:03 am Reply

      Yes Lisa. Please eliminate these posts. Rather sick minded individual to be invading a site like this with spam.

  44. Dee November 10, 2019 at 9:51 am Reply

    Bob, I sent a post earlier to see how you were doing but I put (Bob from WA.). I think I was thinking of a different Bob?? I was reaching out to the Bob who reacted to the septocaine??? I hope you are starting to heal and recover more and more!!?? I also was seeing if you still are doing the homeopathic remedies? I figured you probably stopped those? I hope things are improving for you!!!

  45. Ag November 11, 2019 at 4:38 pm Reply

    Has anyone had a lawyer or someone take their case? It seems like most firms I reached out to that were recommended here are no longer taking these antibiotic cases. Has anyone sued their doctor or pharmacy?

    • L November 11, 2019 at 5:03 pm Reply

      I sued both the doctor and the pharmacy, and unfortunately I had to go it alone. I would not recommend this. I at least had some law background. I was still very sick, but needed to meet the short (in my state) one year statute of limitations. I was so ill I had to sit on the floor in the line waiting to file. I had to learn how to write motions, appear to argue them before the judge, and way more legal research than I had ever done. I had approached 92 attorneys and while a few initially were interested, they eventually declined. Just not worth what it would cost them to try the case. I was so sick and so deluged with discovery requests that ended up dropping one of the defendants.

      Ironically, about 2 days before they were willing to settle (after dragging me through the dirt and into court for a year), I found an attorney! Too late for me, but I did get someone else representation.

      What raises your odds are: what kind of work you were doing (that I assume you lost). If you were in a very well-paying position, and if you are younger and have a lot of working years left that will be effected by this, that helps. If you have had doctors diagnose you with flq toxicity, that is very helpful. It also depends on the laws in your state. Some states (perhaps most) REQUIRE expert witnesses. These are not just any doctors, but those who routinely give testimony in court and are viewed as having extensive knowledge in their field. They are VERY expensive (one reason why it’s hard to get someone to represent you) and the real winners here are the expert witnesses. (you end up having dueling experts.)

      The damages for “pain and suffering” in CA are $250,000, which sounds like a lot of money. But attorneys can eat through a good chunk of that pretty quickly, and by the time they have to pay the client, it leaves little for them. So THAT amount, depending on what state you are in, weighs heavily into their calculations.

      It also depends on the pharmacy laws in your state. For example, in CA (little known law) the pharmacist is REQUIRED to offer you a consult on any medication that is new or in a new strength, dosage, etc. Pretty much no one is aware of this law. This means that if a tech tries to explain the drug usage and side effects to you…that is not compliant. Signing the little electronic box saying you don’t need a consult also is NOT compliant unless it’s a refill (again, this is in CA…your state may have a similar law or not.)

      If you are even considering seeking representation, the first thing you need to do is find out what the statute of limitations for a medical malpractice case is in your state.

      As for suing the MFR, there was a lousy supreme court decision saying that you could not sure if you were given a generic. I know there were a couple law firms trying to get that overturned but not sure what the status of those cases are right now.

      Back when I sued, there wasn’t yet a warning about using Cipro for a UTI. Since there IS one now and for a number of other things, I think it would make it easier to find someone to sue the doctor. (Also, if you are over 60, I believe, there is another warning…) The more warnings ignored the better it looks to an attorney.

      • Ag November 12, 2019 at 11:54 am Reply

        wrote a reply yesterday but for some reason I guess it didnt post. Im in NYC so the statute here is 2.5 years, for me I only have a few days left as its almost been 2.5 years. I havent found anyone willing to take my case, well one lawyer said if I had an aortic aneurysm or did a punch biopsy and it showed nerve damage then they would take it but a punch biopsy is supposedly painful as its deep. I am in my 20s and was an entry level accountant before I quit to look for another job. During my job search, I took brand name Cipro for an uncomplicated uti. I havent worked full time since.

        I dont know anything about motions and filing so i dont know what to do. Im just worried about the cost of trying diferrent treatments and not having the money for it. Also the doctor that the drug was prescribed under was on vacation so I saw the doctor that was covering for her but the drug is prescribed under my doctor that was on vacation. The pharmacy that I filled my prescription at is closed permanently. I think they moved to a nearby town under a completely different name but im not entirely sure.

        By the way L, thank you for all your posts. I read a lot of them and they helped me figure out I now have histamine intolerance when previously I never heard of that so thank you.
        Any recommendations on if/how I could/should sue?

        • L November 12, 2019 at 12:07 pm

          If you took the brand name then you can sue Bayer as well. The only thing I can suggest is doing searches for medical malpractice attorneys. You might also try searching using the terms cipro toxicity + attorney or fluoroquinolone toxicity + attorney (or lawyer.) Here is one firm that actually posted about flq toxicity. Have you tried them? http://lopezmchugh.com/2015/11/13/fluoroquinolone-toxicity-gets-official-new-name/index.html

  46. Ag November 12, 2019 at 6:28 pm Reply

    I haven’t tried that firm but will try them. Thank you for the advice but it seems like most firms arent taking these cases at all. I tried calling like 20-30 places and each one seems to have stopped taking these cases. Last firm I called said they stopped taking fluoroquinolone case in November 2018.

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 13, 2019 at 1:51 am Reply

      In fact,all the Black Box warnings are working in advance of the Farmafia,here.They will tell the judge that the severe adverse reactions are rare,and they are all mentioned in the BB warnings,so,you took the risk,or you didn’t vene read hem,at all.In the meantime they teached the doctors that they should idvice you NOT to read those BB warnings,because they are rare and only make you afraid,unnecessarily.

      What amazes me is,that untill now there seems to be hardly any research on,why some take these poisons over and over again,without major problems,while others get floxed,sometimes even after óne pill.First of all;these adverse reactiones are not so very rare,but because of the delay of days,weeks,months and even years after having taken those “medicines”,the victims,and even their docs don’t realize that the FQ was the cause.Second:because of the delay it’s very hard,if not impossible to prove that an FQ caused all the damage.

      I think that this is the reason that there still is no official research done;the Farmafia doesn’t want the people to know about the long delays between taking the FQ,and experiencing adverse reactions,and admitting that,under particular circumstances,(untill now,”not yet known”) their poisons severely damage people,sometimes even kill them would be a confession and could be used against them,in court.

      • L November 13, 2019 at 11:05 am Reply

        In my case, as in many cases, I was given no warnings. (Except ironically “do not take with magnesium!” As for telling the judge it is rare, that really does not come into play. If you had a side effect it doesn’t matter whether or not they imply it is rare. (That would be like a auto accident case. if someone was killed in an accident where the other driver was doing 25 mph…yeah, that’s rare…but it really has no relevance to the case. (and if it did, that really works against them. the plaintiff would then say “well I took it because they told me side effects were rare.) The difficulty is in getting the expert witnesses who will testify. Although they are getting easier to find. I ended up finding a couple with great credentials and years of court experience.

  47. Henk Noordhuizen November 13, 2019 at 6:28 am Reply

    Where it all started,and why fluorid contaminated soil is one of the Netherlands main (political) problems,now:


  48. Michael November 13, 2019 at 9:37 pm Reply

    Has anybody tried PQQ?


    It’s meant to stimulate new mitochondrial generation. This is one of the potential therapeutic targets for long term FQ disability, namely producing fresh healthy mitochondria without FQ induced mtDNA damage.

    I’m using mitoQ10 for just that but haven’t tried PQQ yet.


    • L November 14, 2019 at 12:39 am Reply

      I use pqq. I can’t say for sure what it does, but I have read so much good about it, I take pqq and ubiquinol. (Used to use mitoq as well…just switched back to ubiquinol for $ reasons)

    • Henk Noordhuizen November 14, 2019 at 4:21 am Reply

      I didn’t use PQQ myself but found this:


      Despite the long list of sources,on the Life Extention page,only very few are about the product itself (PQQ).I found info on the (only?) trial on humans,and those were 5 users,and 5 got a placebo.There was a small positive effect in the user group but,because it was a very short trial,no long term effects are known.

      This is what Life Extension writes in an answer to a question in the comments:

      “Since PQQ appears to be in most plant species and CoQ10 is manufactured in the body, one might question whether one “needs” to supplement with them, however, it appears that the amounts made are not optimal. Supplementing with both will go beyond meeting one’s needs and boost levels to optimal ranges.”

      Even this answer is hardly usefull,because of the lack in research.What are the “optimal ranges”? Are they the same in everybody (one fits all)? Are there long term negative reactions?Too many questions,too little answers.I don’t spend my money on this quite expensive supp.,and I wouldn’t recommend it to others (I usually don’t recommend things I didn’t try myself with possitive results).

      • Don M November 14, 2019 at 7:20 am Reply

        Henk….. Very interesting website. “mygenefood.com” Much of the reading is confusing to the average layperson but skimming through the different subjects does give one a broader perspective of how things work. Kind of confirms that the one idea fits all people is not true. Gives more credence to the idea that all floxies respond differently to different things. One size/thing does not fit all.

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 14, 2019 at 7:43 am

          Hi Don,here’s another interesting website with lots of usefull information:


      • L November 14, 2019 at 10:14 am Reply

        I found this. (Dr Mercola also has info on pqq if you do a search) https://draxe.com/nutrition/pqq-supplement/

        • Henk Noordhuizen November 14, 2019 at 11:04 am

          Dr. Axe:

          * In the studies, five men and five women (!) drank a fruit-flavored beverage that was supplemented with PQQ, resulting in potential changes in antioxidant potential.

          * “the results suggest that PQQ can prevent reduction of brain function in aged persons, especially in attention and working memory.”

          * ” an animal study published in the Journal of Clinical Biochemistry and Nutrition showed that PQQ helped prevent neurodegeneration and improved memory in rats”

          * ” This could have far-reaching benefits, as studies show that antioxidants play a central role in health and disease.”

          * Another animal study found that PQQ could reduce the risk of osteoporosis by inhibiting DNA damage.

          * May Extend Life Span

          * increase longevity in roundworms.

          And than: “Keep in mind, though, that current research is limited to test-tube and animal studies, and more studies are needed to evaluate the effects of PQQ on longevity in humans.”

          For me:no reason to get excited about it,yet.Too much “potential, suggest, could, may, works in rats and roundworms”. And,as always: I prefer,getting mine from natural sources like fruit and vegetables,rather,than from pills and capsules.

    • A.Coleman November 14, 2019 at 10:49 am Reply

      I tried it long enough to use up three bottles. Then switched to regular CoQ10 for three months. Then stopped altogether. No real difference for me. Maybe a tiny bit better on PQQ; but for sure no difference betwen CoQ10 and nothing for me. So, I finished my last bottle of CoQ10 and let that one go.

      I do note as I get better my body is starting to reject some supplements. Currently I am only taking Vitamin D; Vitamin K, Mg; and electrolytes with at need acetamenophen (Tylenol).

      My body has recently told me to quit – Vitamin B complex, arginine, carnitine, and ALA. The lack of Bs has impacted my neuropathy some; but I “feel” a lot better without it.

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